Maybe of interest to guitarists...

Nice one. Happy to admit I have huge holes in my theory, and I might just try some of these to close 'em up.

Hi , Spacey. Hope you have been well. This is indeed an interesting look at the physical geometry of the modes as they relate to the guitar and I am certainly glad that due to the heavy influence jazz has had on how musicians view music these days that these types of ideas are poking through to the mainstream. Before the emphasis was always on the Major (Ionian) and minor (Aeolian) scales/modes and ommiting all those crucial in between steps of logic that tie them together. Then when discussing what could be easily explained in modal terms to even beginner students theory twisted its way around complicated schemes  involving chords and cadences. Kind of like only teaching someone how to count to ten using only the numbers 1, 6 and 10 then expecting them to learn how to add, subtract, divide, multiply, find the square root of potato and so on based on that. Very silly.
 
I do still find it disheartening that when these more through, accurate and, IMO, simpler and linear approaches to theory are explained they are always associated with jazz which I think in many ways intimidates students. When one thinks of jazz theory and they are not familiar with it it conjures up images of ultra complex and highly advanced techniques and concepts. I think more traditional theory and methods are the more confusing and erratic and inhibit not just guitar players but musicians in general. Us as guitar players then tend to have a harder time because we don't have a linear and preorganized/preordained sequence of notes on our instruments like single note instruments like brass or woodwinds or the piano where you can just create keys by adding and subtracting the amount of black keys you use then applying it across the entire keyboard.
 
Modern modal theory is the full picture of the diatonic/twelve tone system we use in all western music. The only difference between genres is what is added, taken away and occasionally slightly altered (like happens with harmonic and melodic minors and their relative modes both of which are completely based on the standard modes created by the Major scale with only one note modified) and the rhythm/timbre the notes are played with.
 
I think the the article you linked to is a useful one for physically learning the various patterns the modes create on guitar but I think they really should have emphasized more the importance of placing the patterns into their proper order after they have been learned. On top of that they should have explained that although these patterns when played from root on the low E string to the double octave on the high E string that each of the patterns contains all seven modes.
 There is also the matter of how the flat/sharp keys are formed in 1st position which severely alters these patterns and since they specifically mentioned jazz theory and a lot of jazz theory is written in those odd keys due to horn parts and whatnot it could lead to some serious frustration.
 
All in all... awesome find and extremely encouraging to see the educational community finally analysing guitar theory in this manner. I agree any guitar players here should take a look at this article and perhaps the forum hosts could make this a dual sub forum thread (instead of simply moving it) so it can be in both the CH and the Techniques forums.
 
This type of intensive theory is actually what has been keeping me busy and away from the forum (but I am lurking). If you liked this article I am working on something that explores every nook and crannie of exactly these types of topics and I intend to share it with my friends here first before releasing it to the world at large. It's a lot of work though but I think it'll be worth it.
 
Take care. I'll be off furiously lurking in the corner. ;-)

heh heh. spacey said Am

That is an excellent sequence, Spacey and I've contemplated including a similar scheme to the method I'm writing but later on in the series after the linear sequence of the modes has been initially established. That way going throuhg the sequence as you have described would show the relationship between the I, IV and V of both the Major and minor scales.
 
The only exception being (and you probably already noticed the omission) is the Locrian mode. For that I would not use a minor chord but a diminished chord. Not a metal style voicing with the 5th over the root but the I, III, V to get the true flavor of the triad produced by locrian. I always like to make sure that the 7th mode is viewed as the oddball of the pattern which sets up standard Major modal chord theory quite nicely and then serves to show how drastically different the triad sequence of the harmonic and melodic minor modes are (which introduce augmented chords and then 6th chords because they sound better then the augmented in series).
 
I also think the vii to I chord cadence is a nice way to explain the concept of the "leading note". It's a pretty familar sounding chord jump for the end of songs as a little post song flourish. What does annoy me though is how difficult the actual low E string to high E string chord formation is for the dimished chord which makes it more difficult in relation to the Major and minor chords on guitar but I have ways around that.
 
Now here's a question for you... how and when would you deal with concept of 7ths in relation to the modes while dealing with a newcomer to modal theory? I always kind of want to point it out when dealing with the actual tone/semitone structure but considering how many other ideas are floating around I think it is best to leave it to a separate chord study that points to the scale structure study as a reference.
 
Cheers.

Beepster, I greatly look forward to what you are working on. I have always been basically a rhythm player and have just started in the last couple of years to learn to solo. I felt that I may have started off on the wrong foot, so I was just recently starting to go back and take a look at scales and modes, rethink what I have been playing.

MakeShift
Beepster, I greatly look forward to what you are working on. I have always been basically a rhythm player and have just started in the last couple of years to learn to solo. I felt that I may have started off on the wrong foot, so I was just recently starting to go back and take a look at scales and modes, rethink what I have been playing.

Hiya, Mike. Honestly I don't think that is starting on the wrong foot at all. By playing rhythm I think you physically get a better head start than someone working through something like the old Hal Leanord books and the note by note, string by string method. You are exactly the type of player my method is geared toward. Someone who's been playing for a while but is looking for answers and exercises. Really I'm super pumped and I must confess since I've started actually writing it all down I've become obsessed with doing so (which is why I haven't been around... I am writing non stop). Unfortunately it's a long process because I want to be as thorough, yet concise, as possible. I'm hoping sometime after the new year I'll have a beta version ready for human consumption which I'll be bouncing off the Cake forums first as a thank you for all the help I've received here in regards to DAW stuff and to get some general input from everyone.
 
In the meantime the article Spacey linked shows a ton of useful stuff and then his post about possible ways to practice it all is great.
 
I'd say learn those modes backwards and forwards, jam out on them with backing tracks you made in Sonar, try seeing if you can take songs you know and figuring out what modes they are using and really get comfortable with the "shapes" of those patterns so you can move them around. It'll all start making sense and meshing together.
 
Cheers, buddy.

Beepster
 
Now here's a question for you... how and when would you deal with concept of 7ths in relation to the modes while dealing with a newcomer to modal theory? I always kind of want to point it out when dealing with the actual tone/semitone structure but considering how many other ideas are floating around I think it is best to leave it to a separate chord study that points to the scale structure study as a reference.
 
Cheers.

 
The reason I suggested the change (order of what to practice) I listed rather than his is because I think when one knows this stuff  it's easy to forget how hard it might be when trying to show it for someone else.
 
I think it pays to break it down into smaller sections for many of the theoritical aspects/lessons. Especially with modes since it seems that so many seem to be having trouble with them...at least that's what I'm reading and noticing all the articles about them.
That is why I limited it to dealing with one key and a key with no accidentals ( sharps or flats). It may help some keep track of the thought process. ( I think some refer to key centers to make it faster and easier based on the way they see or were taught....for instance in his lesson of starting with the Lydian and thinking about the 4th being raised (in C it would be F#) some would just think, "play a G scale starting on C" which would be perfectly fine. Again...just an example to show different way of looking at the same thing.
 
Your question (about 7ths) is a good example of deviating from the task at hand. Probably a mistake many make. Rather than focusing  and practicing on the specific lesson until it's learned to point of "not forgetting it easily" or addressing questions specific to the lesson it can all become very confusing.
 

Beepster
The only exception being (and you probably already noticed the omission) is the Locrian mode.  
Cheers.

Beep, it's not omitted. Check 05.

spacey

Beepster
 
Now here's a question for you... how and when would you deal with concept of 7ths in relation to the modes while dealing with a newcomer to modal theory? I always kind of want to point it out when dealing with the actual tone/semitone structure but considering how many other ideas are floating around I think it is best to leave it to a separate chord study that points to the scale structure study as a reference.
 
Cheers.

 
The reason I suggested the change (order of what to practice) I listed rather than his is because I think when one knows this stuff  it's easy to forget how hard it might be when trying to show it for someone else.
 
I think it pays to break it down into smaller sections for many of the theoritical aspects/lessons. Especially with modes since it seems that so many seem to be having trouble with them...at least that's what I'm reading and noticing all the articles about them.
That is why I limited it to dealing with one key and a key with no accidentals ( sharps or flats). It may help some keep track of the thought process. ( I think some refer to key centers to make it faster and easier based on the way they see or were taught....for instance in his lesson of starting with the Lydian and thinking about the 4th being raised (in C it would be F#) some would just think, "play a G scale starting on C" which would be perfectly fine. Again...just an example to show different way of looking at the same thing.
 
Your question (about 7ths) is a good example of deviating from the task at hand. Probably a mistake many make. Rather than focusing  and practicing on the specific lesson until it's learned to point of "not forgetting it easily" or addressing questions specific to the lesson it can all become very confusing.
 

Beepster
The only exception being (and you probably already noticed the omission) is the Locrian mode.  
Cheers.

Beep, it's not omitted. Check 05.

Heh... I meant you may of noticed I had omitted locrian and then redesignated to a diminished chord. You had it in there where it is usually placed. I just like making sure it is pointed out that the vii is different than the other minor modes even though it has the same minor third.
 
In regards to separating ones self from the perspective of an experienced player and thinking like a student I agree completely. That is one of the biggest challenges I am facing. I keep finding myself trailing off and explaining things that I shouldn't be but I go back and edit it out. It's annoying but because of it it has made me start getting into a "coaxing" or "pre-coaching" style of teaching where I'll say "Okay... you see this little weird anomaly? We aren't going to talk about that yet but just make a little mental marker that it's there." I figure that way I'm not overburdening the student but just sloooowly making them notice little things and developing around those nuggets as we move along instead of plopping a bunch of stuff into their laps all at once. A gentle and gradual prodding toward where I want them to go without straying too far from the topic at hand.
 
It could be disastrous as a teaching style but time will tell and I can always edit things later based on user input. It's worked pretty well whenever I've taught people privately so I'm hopeful. Being face to face with a student is a lot different than teaching through text and diagrams though.

Thanks for the offer Beep, I'd do the same if I was able!  Right now it's time to just get a reasonably "normal" life back then move forward slowly.  I love these types of threads - theory can be fun (though it certainly is NOT the be-all-end-all of making music!).
 
Oh, and I agree with your sentiment about Yamaha Pacificas - very underrated guitars!

My favorite mode is "a la mode" (the North American definition). 

JohnoL
Matt Warnock has a lot of nice lessons and articles at his website.
 http://mattwarnockguitar.com/

Thanks for the link. I love rooting through sites like that for new terminology and genre specific methods of playing and writing. I'm a "big picture" theory guy so learning all the little nuances and concepts of specific genres so I can mimic them and test my own systems out in comparison is fun and useful. Jazz is of particular interest to me at the moment because it is so bent and broad and that site looks like it has a lot of useful and well presented info.
 
Cheers.
 
 

Beepster
Not sure what happened to you, man but I hope it works out well and fast. 

A few years ago I got caught in all the illegal dealings the banks were doing and lost houses, a vehicle and over $820k (and, naturally, my nice music studio went with my main house).  I still haven't really recovered, but I was making progress until the owner of the house that I was the resident property manager for suddenly decided to sell in September.  Horrible timing for me with lots of weird (and not good) things that happened at the same time so it knocked me back down to zero again.  Now I'm in a much better place and could have a decent job by the end of the month managing a new warehouse for my friend's business (while also doing IT work).  So I'm looking forward to a good 2015!