Helpful ReplyTracking PC, No Disrespect Intended!

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TremoJem
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2014/12/08 14:26:13 (permalink)

Tracking PC, No Disrespect Intended!

I actually posted this first on another thread...as it is somewhat sad of me to even consider this and I don't want to dis-respect anyone...as ALL of you have added great value to my amateur recording hobby thru your advise and wisdom.
 
But, I think I might need a new desktop to "ADD" to the already PURRFECT one I have in my mixing/mastering room. Of course, I am speaking about my amazing ProStudio from Purrfect Audio...thanks again Jim!
 
This new addition is for tracking only. In another room entirely. Used for up to 16 mics at a time and maybe just 14 mics and the bass direct and myself using TH2, although I am not entirely sold on TH2.
 
If all comes out great and I can get a killer sound with TH2 during mix down, then great.

So...and don't throw things at me, why can't I just get a cheap off the shelf pc. I get it...with mixing/mastering get the best, and I did. And, for tracking I am thinking I can cheat a little, only because I don't have anymore studio funds.

I found one with i7, 3.2GHz, 8GB ram and one TB HDD. I can wipe the drive re-load Win7 without any crap and configure the bios, and then optimize or tweak for use.

Why is this a bad idea...as it is all I can afford.

I know this is stupid, as I love my Prostudio...but cannot afford a second one.
 
I am struggling to get this laptop of mine to work with out pops/clicks and am aware that I am asking way too much of this machine...no matter how much tweaking and optimizing I do.

Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser
 
Most importantly...not enough time.
 
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#1
...wicked
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Re: Tracking PC, No Disrespect Intended! 2014/12/08 14:57:20 (permalink)
Now that PC hardware has progressed so much, it is totally viable to use an off the shelf PC as your DAW. Acknowledging that you'll need to replace/upgrade it more often...but that's offset by the initial price which is usually lower than a custom built machine.
 
There's still things to be wary of though. On-board graphics for one, which might not be powerful enough or may cause system resource hogging. Also RAM speed, and PSU wattage.
 

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#2
John
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Re: Tracking PC, No Disrespect Intended! 2014/12/08 15:11:02 (permalink)
I think what you are proposing is a great idea.  As stated above simply be careful of the specs.  Many users have remote systems for off site recording. 

Best
John
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Karyn
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Re: Tracking PC, No Disrespect Intended! 2014/12/08 15:22:56 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2014/12/08 16:40:03
To be honest, for mixing and mastering the PC doesn't matter so much because you can up the latency to stupid levels and it doesn't matter.  Who cares if there's a half second pause between hitting Play and the system actually going into playback...
 
Where it DOES matter is when you're recording, especially if you're wanting to track 16 channels live.  The last thing you want is a dropout because a cheap HDD couldn't keep up...
 
This should be in Computers ....    Moving it.

Mekashi Futo
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TremoJem
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Re: Tracking PC, No Disrespect Intended! 2014/12/08 15:24:03 (permalink)
The one I looked at had the Intel 4600.
 
That is what my ProStudio has.

Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser
 
Most importantly...not enough time.
 
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#5
Karyn
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Re: Tracking PC, No Disrespect Intended! 2014/12/08 16:22:42 (permalink)
I have a similar situation to you in that I do FOH at live gigs and often need to record every channel for mix down later.
 
My solution was a cheap, old laptop doing nothing but recording.  My 24 channel digital mixer provided 24 tracks through Firewire direct to the laptop where it was recorded to an external HDD using Presonus Capture.  The thing here is that Capture does nothing else than dump the incoming tracks to disk, and the laptop was doing nothing else other than running Capture.
Since I moved up to 32 channels my old HDD wasn't fast enough so I used the excuse to upgrade to a macbook with an external drive on thunderbolt.  Problem solved.
 
But the point is,  you need speed for recording and power for mixing.

Mekashi Futo
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#6
tlw
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Re: Tracking PC, No Disrespect Intended! 2014/12/08 16:53:43 (permalink)
Karyn, when you say you used an external thunderbolt drive do you mean a USB3/thunderbolt type that gives USB3 data speeds or a dedicated thunderbolt RAID setup like a G-Force?

My reason for asking is I'm considering a similar setup and a G-Force is much more expensive than a 7200rpm drive in a USB3 enclosure.

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Karyn
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Re: Tracking PC, No Disrespect Intended! 2014/12/08 17:44:50 (permalink)
Personaly I use one of these Lacie drives.  The 1 TB version.
 
It has both USB3  (5Gbits/s) and Thunderbolt (10Gbits/s) interfaces.
While it only uses a 5400 rpm drive (Rated 110MBytes/s) 32 channel 48K/24bit recording requires a sustained 4.5MBytes/s transfer rate which it easily handles.  
 
48000 x 3(bytes) x 32(channels) = 4608000 Bytes/s or approx 4.5MB/s
 
The bottle neck for my old setup was a really old laptop (core2centrino) trying to run Win8 and a USB HDD.  The poor thing just couldn't cope.
 
I use the Lacie mainly because it's meant to be drop proof (within reason) and it could end up getting some serious abuse in the environments it'll get exposed to.
 
 
I would add that being 5400rpm I would NOT recommend it as the main data drive for a DAW where you're throwing files back and forth.  That relies on fast random access and you really need 7200rpm.

Mekashi Futo
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slartabartfast
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Re: Tracking PC, No Disrespect Intended! 2014/12/08 17:50:11 (permalink)
16 tracks x 96000 samples/ sec x 24 bits /sample= 36,864,000 bits /sec /8 = 4,608,000 bytes or 4.6 MB /sec
 
That is the load you will be putting on your hard drive. The load on your CPU and the internal processing in an audio interface is negligible by comparison to the limit of the drive writing. That speed should be well within reach of a good 7200 rpm drive with a decent buffer, even assuming the tracks are being written as individual files. You need a fast hard drive for recording dry, not a lot of processor speed.
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johnnyV
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Re: Tracking PC, No Disrespect Intended! 2014/12/08 22:02:13 (permalink)
As I said in the other thread, I have used a pathetic laptop to record 16 tracks of audio without issues, But I always use a 7200R PM HD and it is as empty as possible. 
 
You can build yourself a great computer using top quality parts for around $600 I just did. 
 
And if I was building just for tracking I could have saved more. 
I would think an i3 quad and 4 Gigs of RAM with a SSD drive would do the trick. 
SSD use very little juice so you don't even need a huge power supply anymore. 
You hurry there are still sales happening. 
 
On a real budget- stop by your local computer repair shop and ask if they have any trade ins. My local shops re sells ready to go W7 computers for $200-$300. Some have pretty decent specs. 
Bet they'd add a SSD drive too. 

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#10
TremoJem
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Re: Tracking PC, No Disrespect Intended! 2014/12/09 06:50:48 (permalink)
There are some really encouraging posts here.
 
What I take away from this is that I need a 7200rpm HDD, which my laptop has.
 
But, with a tired old duo-core running at 2.5GHz and four gigs of ram it just won't keep up.
 
So, since I am only keeping the .cwp files on this tracking PC for the duration of the tracking session, and then moving them to my Lacie to copy to my ProStudio, I should consider an SSD for a new system, or maybe an upgrade to the laptop, but doubt that upgrade would yield any real performance increase...but, I don't know.
 
I know it is better to have two HDDs, one for the OS and one for project files. I can't imagine I would benefit from connecting one of my Lacies, using USB, while tracking. Wouldn't that actually slow me down.
 
Also, if I get a new system, should I still stick to the two HDD set up, and if so, is an SSD necessary?
 
I really did not realize the difference between the two systems.
 
I think my ProStudio is perfect for my mixing/mastering, as I use many plug-ins and will soon be adding soft-synths.
 
But, I did not realize how different an optimized tracking  PC could be. I am confident that I could carry the ProStudio downstairs to the tracking room, and it would kick butt, but I don't want to disturb the set-up in the mixing/mastering room or take any chances with that PC...it is just not worth it.
 
So I guess I don't really need an i7. That saves my money.
 
Any other suggestions will get me closer to whether or not I will build a PC or buy one, or upgrade the laptop with 2 more gigs of ram and an SSD...LOL.
 
 

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Most importantly...not enough time.
 
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#11
johnnyV
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Re: Tracking PC, No Disrespect Intended! 2014/12/09 11:38:22 (permalink)
I'm not sure at this point if your thinking of building/ buying a desktop computer just for tracking or still trying to get the Dell to run smoothly. 
 
I'm not sure in all the back and forth in the other thread if anyone advised this option. 
 
Purchase a 120 GB SSD drive for the Dell and install a fresh copy of Windows 7. Not the Dell OME version with the bloatware, but a proper copy. I'm optimistic that it would serve you fine for tracking. If not at least you'd still have a better laptop for other uses, no loss really. 
 

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#12
TremoJem
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Re: Tracking PC, No Disrespect Intended! 2014/12/09 12:14:58 (permalink)
I am really on the fence.
 
I do see the advantage of two HDD so that is important if I buy/build. Unfortunately the only way to use two HDDs with the laptop is to use an external HDD with USB, but won't that be a bottleneck?
 
If not, then maybe it is a good idea to try the SSD in the laptop and hook up and external. If this works then great.
 
If not I can use the SSD for the buy/build if necessary.
 
Oh, and my copy of Win7 is a good copy...my laptop shipped with Vista. I got rid of that the first year.
 
So here is the plan...please correct or advise on specs.
 
Laptop attempt: get an SSD for internal and try external (USB) HDD for project files...that is if you guys/gals don't think the external will bottleneck me.
 
Buy/build: i5 quad 3.0 GHz or higher, 8GB of ram or more, internal HDD @ 7200rpm and a second one of the same, or upgrade to SSD for use with the project files not the OS...I think that is right. On board HD4600.
 
Let me know what you think.
 
Thanks
 
 

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Most importantly...not enough time.
 
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#13
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Tracking PC, No Disrespect Intended! 2014/12/09 13:25:06 (permalink)
There's no doubt (from a performance perspective) that you'd be better with the custom build.  

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
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johnnyV
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Re: Tracking PC, No Disrespect Intended! 2014/12/09 23:04:48 (permalink)
You don't need to record directly to the external. I would record to the internal SSD and dump it to the external at the end of the night. 
An internal SATA drive be it regular 7200 or  SSD is going to handle a lot more than a external USB drive. 
Don't erase the files on the SSD until they are also transferred from the External to your main DAW. That way there is always 2 copies on hand. 
 
I built my DAW with a 120 SSD OS drive, it also has a 1 TB 7200 data drive for all music stuff and a 500 Gig data back up drive. I also have a couple of external drives. 
 
 

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TremoJem
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Re: Tracking PC, No Disrespect Intended! 2014/12/10 06:36:11 (permalink)
Jim...you are so right, but I really can't swing that kind of cash right now.
 
I guess I will stick with what I got and drop the TH2 for now.

Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser
 
Most importantly...not enough time.
 
www.studiocat.com
jim@studiocat.com
 
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fireberd
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Re: Tracking PC, No Disrespect Intended! 2014/12/10 06:47:35 (permalink)
One note.  The Dell OEM version OS DOES NOT have any bloatware in it.  This is a misconception that some have.  Its no different than any other OEM OS version except that it is pre activated.  Bloatware is other software that is installed by PC manufacturers and its not limited to Dell, almost all do that.  Bloatware and the OS are two totally different things. 
 
If a Dell owner reinstalls using the Dell "PC Restore" (recovery partition on the hard drive) they will get everything as it was originally delivered.  However, if a Dell user only installs the OS using a Dell installation disc it will ONLY be the Operating System, nothing else (and in that case they will have to install all the device drivers).
 
 
 

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johnnyV
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Re: Tracking PC, No Disrespect Intended! 2014/12/10 10:13:47 (permalink)
Thanks for the details on Dell Jack.
I just re did an old 2001? Dell Optiplex GX240 and XP SP2 had the drivers. Not generic but the exact ones listed for it. 
I found it tossed out at work and was not optimistic that it would even run as is. But after 5 minutes it booted in to default XP. So I swapped out the 20 GB drive for a 250 GB and it's nice and perky now. It's going in my wife's art studio so she can listen to music and look at pictures. 
 

Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional
 Scarlett 6i6
Yamaha Gear= 01v - NSM 10 - DTX 400 - MG82cx
Roland Gear= A 49- GR 50 - TR 505 - Boss pedals
Tascam Gear=  DR 40 - US1641 -
Mackie Gear= Mix 8 - SRM 350's 
i5 Z97 3.2GHZ quad 16 Gig RAM W 8.1  home build
Taylor mini GS - G& L Tribute Tele - 72 Fender Princeton - TC BH 250 - Mooer and Outlaw Pedals  Korg 05/RW
 
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