Helpful ReplyRecommendations for learning piano/keyboard

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Mantofini
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2014/12/09 15:01:12 (permalink)

Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard

Hopefully this is the appropriate forum. I've been toying with the idea of learning how to play piano so that I can take better advantage of all the cool virtual instruments I have. I always struggle trying to build chords on a keyboard and when I do figure them out, my playing is extremely sloppy.
 
My main instrument is guitar. I was wondering if there were any guitar players on the forum that taught themselves how to play piano and might be able to recommended some books, resources, etc or even share how they went about it. All I can really think of at this point is to grab a random beginner piano method book, flick on a metronome  and start learning Mary Had a Little Lamb, etc. Any advice out there? I don't have money for lessons at this point.
 
Also, for any keyboard players. What helped you best learn chords and different voicings? I remember early in my guitar days using a guitar chord book to learn some new voicings to play. Is there a piano equivalent?
 
Thanks to anybody that replies.
#1
Philip
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/09 23:10:38 (permalink)
TOO EASY, you are perfrect!!!  Keyboard is BY FAR the EASIEST instrument and GREATEST, far easier than the axe and vox.  (Singing is the hardest, judging from myself and all my friends here).
 
Yes, get a piano-chord chart (google) and nothing else to teach you all the magic chords of 12 major keys (print 12 web pages for free).  I did purchase a "music theory for idiots" book to inspire my muse.
 
I WAS like you and taught myself piano AFTER learning guitar (chords and the 12 keys (No lessons)).  
 
Forget instructors (especially virtuosos), you should be teaching them, imho.  Don't site read ... BIG MISTAKE!  I tried that and almost quit.  Fortunately, guitarists play mostly by ear (with their inspiration and their bands').  So transitioning from guitar to piano is almost effortless!
 
Just push piano buttons: VERY easy to learn everything basic in one week (one hour/day): 12 scales with magic chords ... with your right hand.  The left hand easily picks up everything the right hand does.  (Just forget the sustain pedal(s))
 
Once you learn the key of C, go to G, then everything else.  (The rest is just 'finger-math').
 
Right hand (treble cleft) is like rhythm and electric guitar.  Left hand (bass cleft) is exactly like bass guitar.  Its that simple.  Stay away from grand pianos!  They intimidate only.
 
Do not consciously arpeggiate and pick notes the first week ... all that comes naturally after week 1.
 
Just play the keys and chords and learn to sing with your piano in ONE week, for 95% of ALL songs.  This should be indoctrinated at public school, imho.  
 
Also, you may find the piano is BETTER than the guitar ... a wondrous blessing/privilege etc.

Philip  
(Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

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spacealf
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sharke
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/10 01:09:35 (permalink)
I disagree with not sight reading. I learned to sight read on the guitar by teaching myself classical and it opened so many new doors. I can only imagine how many doors you'd have access to on the piano. I did try and learn piano properly some years ago, through a couple of self-teaching books. Unfortunately I couldn't seem to comprehend how in the hell you read two staves at once. I don't think my eyes are tall enough lol....I wish I'd stuck at it though, I feel sure I would have gotten used to it. Like Mantofini I really wish I had the same level of dexterity and skill on the keyboard as I do on guitar. I can construct chords of any spelling on the fly at any position of the fretboard in a split second without even thinking about it, yet it takes me a good few seconds just to figure out a Bb major on the keyboard. It sucks!

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rumleymusic
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/10 11:49:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Mitch_I 2014/12/11 20:18:01
Piano is not an easy instrument.  At least not to play well.  It can take decades of tireless practice to master.  If you wish to hammer out a few chords without finesse, that is a different story.  A few months of private lessons would do any musician good.  It is probably the most useful instrument to learn for any discipline or style.   All aspiring professional musicians who study music in college MUST learn piano.  Basic competency is a requirement for the degree.  

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Mantofini
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/10 12:19:57 (permalink)
rumleymusic
Piano is not an easy instrument.  At least not to play well.  It can take decades of tireless practice to master.  If you wish to hammer out a few chords without finesse, that is a different story.  A few months of private lessons would do any musician good.  It is probably the most useful instrument to learn for any discipline or style.   All aspiring professional musicians who study music in college MUST learn piano.  Basic competency is a requirement for the degree.  



rumleymusic, I don't disagree. The same can be said about learning the guitar. My goal is definitely not to master the piano. I still can't say I've done that with the guitar. It's more about being comfortable enough to come up with accompanying parts for the music I make for my enjoyment. Simple arpeggios and chords. I can visualize scales and keys on the fretboard. I can't on the piano. I always have to find middle-c and work from there using my knowledge of theory. When I first started guitar, I taught myself before starting lessons. I'd like to do the same here. If you have any suggestions given the additional context, I would love to hear them.
 
spacealf, thanks for the links. I checked out a few videos and they seem to all be made under the assumption that the viewer knows nothing about theory or reading music. I was hoping that there may be a resource that is targeted to somebody learning the piano as a second instrument however, I haven't found it yet. Just to be clear about the walmart link, you were recommending the virtuoso piano series books, right? I will look in to those. Is it safe to assume that they are excercises to improve your technique and finger independance?
 
sharke, if I come across something that makes learning click easily for somebody with a guitar background, I will let you know. Knowing the piano seems so important since it's the paradigm that's used for all virtual instruments.
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Mantofini
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/10 12:24:28 (permalink)
Philip, just realized I missed your reply. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try printing off some chords and see if that helps me.
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/10 17:36:34 (permalink)
I honestly do not see what the big deal is …
you want to learn how to play Piano ? guess what , you already have the best tool available now to do that if you have SONAR and a Midi Keyboard
A book can not talk to you and tell you if you are playing all the right or wrong rhythms when you read sheet music 
A teacher can , but if you don't have a teacher to look over your shoulder and correct you …that's OK …
all anybody has to do is go online and download as many free midi files as you can find .
The WWW has thousands of them in any style and any genre ….
here's a few examples of Piano midi files 
 
to download files (it's a right click to save to computer ) 
 
http://www.piano-midi.de/midi_files.htm 
 
http://www.trachtman.org/ragtime/ 
 
http://www.wtv-zone.com/gnubee/all_piano_midis/ 
 
once you find something you like , all you have to do is open it up in SONAR .. assign a soft synth ..
open up the staff view , read along to get a feel for it …
then to make it easy on your self loop a section , if you have to slow it down …slow it down 
then  just play a long the best you can with your midi keyboard …..
 
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#8
spacealf
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/10 18:55:15 (permalink)
Sorry, but the Virtuoso Piano book was kind of a joke persay. Yes it can exercise your fingers, but even though I have one of those books I never use it. By the time I get done with it and the first few exercises, that is all there is in my head. Even months and years later, I can repeat the first few exercises by heart in my head. I find that when I tried to use it, all that ended up in my brain for music was that book and those exercises. If anything like me, I defer not using that book unless you do not have a memory. Perhaps listening to hours of music of something else a day would eliminate that. I prefer not to be driven crazy by that book. But it would help my fingers play better though.
 
I sure they have chord videos at utube probably also. Actually piano is not that hard. You have 12 notes in an Octave, and all the way up and down on the keyboard they are the same, just like moving up the frets on a guitar with the same chord. Only thing different on the piano is learning the notes that make up the chord, and with different chords the intervals of the notes are all the same. I suppose learning the intervals that make up the chords might help, but unlike guitar where you might learn different fingerings for chords and remember those, on the piano it is just you have to learn what makes up the chord and in different octaves of a piano or even an octave and a half, there is not that many different positions to move the chord up or down the piano.
 
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Piano+chords
 
Obviously this is another probably dumb post, and you will have to excuse me. If you know the notes of any scale, then applying by thinking of what notes make up a major, minor, dim, augmented, min7, maj7, 9th or any other chord on the piano is basically just another set of finger spacings depending on the key signature somewhat like a guitar that you learn to play. Well, obviously also I do not teach any musical instrument either.
 
It's getting your fingers stuck between the black and white notes on the piano that is different nowadays with the smaller spacing between the white and black keys on the piano. I swear on a regular piano (not a synthesizer) there use to be more room between and on all keys. Now on a synth like it is only an inch for a key space, where before I swear it was 1-1/4", at least on a guitar somewhat you can pick out the length of the neck you want - 24.75", or 25.5" somewhat, on a piano, no you usually can not do that anymore.
 
http://www.dolmetsch.com/theoryintro.htm
 
I suppose that may be a worse website, but it is all music theory.
 
And at last:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6YsfxrCVYU
 
Tones and semi-tones and the interval between those make up chords on a piano (actually it is music theory even on a guitar).
 
Then with guitar strapped on your neck using your hands, and piano on the desk using your feet and perhaps your head for bass drums or drums, you can end up like some of these people making more money than a lot of musicians make in this world, being a one-person band.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2lo5Iz3gRY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDLrpG0DCqI


Okay, I am done!

 
 
 
post edited by spacealf - 2014/12/10 19:25:03

 
 
#9
Scoot
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/10 20:28:58 (permalink)
On guitar, I used the lessons but Justin Sandercoe (Justin Guitar) on Youtube, and found having a teacher that gave a  structured progressive system, a good way to get an understanding and develope a technique. As opposed to finding lots of random lessons. Looking at chord voicings recently I found what seemed to be a similar teacher for piano, but spent a little time trying to find him yesterday. I'll have another attempt today. 
 
One lesson he spoke about how chords in the lower octaves could be much more open than the lower, as the overtones helped for form the constistant sound of being that chord. But in the upper range of the keyboard, the ear is less sensitive to these overtones, so suited closed tones. From watching various videos on playing, although this point is not being made, I can see it in practice. This seems to go against the idea that you just 'find a chord and play it anywhere'. A suggestts to me a good teacher would open your eyes to less obvious ideas.
 
Chord voicings, and playing techniques for playing chords with both hands, seems a big part of making playing sound more developed, interesting and natural, especially if they are providing the backing structure, rather than leading a piece of music.
 
 

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Guitarhacker
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/10 20:41:53 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Mitch_I 2014/12/11 20:19:31
Either take lessons for a while, assuming you can find a teacher......
 
or, check on line for software that you can load into your computer and as long as you're willing to spend 30 minutes or so a day with it, you can learn on the computer.  We had some of that software around here when the girls were younger. It was like playing a game.... and you learned how to play the piano..... very cool.
 
No, I don't think piano is easy..... to me, guitar was easier.... learn a few chords and you can play lots of songs. With piano, learning how to place fingers as you move up and down scales is important. 
 
I will say this: the piano is the absolute best instrument to know and understand when you are learning music theory. It's all right there in front of you in black and white, in a linear fashion..... unlike most other instruments.

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#11
Scoot
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/10 21:24:10 (permalink)
Here's the video I liked.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL3Y9B34_7w
 
and his other tutorials
 
https://www.youtube.com/user/billhiltonbiz/playlists
 
He has a book too, to accompany it

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sharke
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/10 21:24:43 (permalink)
When I went to the IMSTA FESTA in New York last year, there was a company there touting some interactive piano lesson app which actually looked really good. I meant to check it out further when I got home but couldn't for the life of me remember the name so it got forgotten about. I should have realized how easy it was to find it out from the IMSTA website though....so here it is, Playground Sessions, co-created by Quincy Jones:
 
http://www.playgroundsessions.com/
 
 

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Mantofini
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/10 23:28:12 (permalink)
@spacealf, thanks for the laugh. I think I can safely guarantee that I will not become a one-man band like those youtube videos you provided. I may try and find that Japanese guy's outfit though. That qualifies as business casual, right?
 
@scoot, thanks for the youtube links. I actually found the videos useful. There are a few things there I hope to try this weekend when I get some time to sit and play.
 
@sharke, thanks for your link, as well. That does seem intruiging.
 
@guitarhacker, Piano? Best instrument? You can't even bend the keys. How are you supposed to hit those all important 1/4 tone notes between the semi-tones? I jest, of course. If the layout wasn't so obvious, I don't think I'd be able to do the little on the piano that I can do at the moment.
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rumleymusic
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/11 22:54:09 (permalink)
One lesson he spoke about how chords in the lower octaves could be much more open than the lower, as the overtones helped for form the constistant sound of being that chord.

 
There is a basic rule in theory that notes below a certain octave should never be closer than a fourth or fifth.  The frequencies are so close together that it becomes just mud.  Lower chords are better spaced out, never a third on the bottom.  
 
I swear on a regular piano (not a synthesizer) there use to be more room between and on all keys. Now on a synth like it is only an inch for a key space, where before I swear it was 1-1/4", at least on a guitar somewhat you can pick out the length of the neck you want - 24.75", or 25.5" somewhat, on a piano, no you usually can not do that anymore.

 
Synth key usually are smaller.  They are obviously not meant to be used as a piano performance medium, but more of a musical/compositional aide.   Though I personally hate full sized "Hammer-Action" keys on most electric stage pianos and large synths.  IMO worse than standard weighted keys and nothing at all like a piano feel.  

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batsbrew
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/12 10:54:23 (permalink)
i would ask around, and find the best teacher in your area.
 
it will short track your learning curve by at least half.
 
it will provide the most solid foundation for learning, which is more important than anything else.
 
 

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spacealf
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/12 13:43:54 (permalink)
I guess it depends on which one-person band outfit you choose.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KobTtlkWNM
 
 

 
 
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Bel Amine
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/14 10:36:46 (permalink)
Finding a good teacher will definitely speed up the learning process. Putting in the work will also do that. Try to find the best teacher possible.
 
Alternatively, Bastien's Piano for Adults is a great book for learning the piano. There are 2 volumes actually and they really help with not only your piano skills but your music theory skills. You will have to learn how to sight-read but embrace that, being able to sight-read is an invaluable skill and the book does a good job of building up that skill. The reason I recommended the books is because they were designed to take you through a logical progression, so you get from point A to point B as best as possible.
 
Good luck!
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tKx5050
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/21 16:23:02 (permalink)
Like the OP, I'm in the same boat. I agree that taking formal lessons is the best but if you live in the boondocks like me that's not always easy. I had a look at "Playground Sessions" but it seemed even the advanced lessons were focused on chord/melody style playing. That's great if you just want to entertain yourself at home but that's not how you would accompany yourself on a song you're writing.
 
Lots of stuff on the internet. Learn the chords and the keys then go through Bill Hiltons youtube videos. If you're still dedicated after that I'd suggest checking out "PianoWithWillie". It's not cheap and probably 65% jazz orientated but there's worse things in life than accidently picking up a little jazz theory. The whole point of his site is to learn to play like a real keyboardist would either live or on a recording and how to take chord/melody sheet music and turn it into an actual arrangement.
 
I find the hardest part is just devoting the time. Good luck, mantofini, and have fun!

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Jablowmi19
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/21 17:15:05 (permalink)
If you can play the guitar, the it's REALLY easy! So you know chords are build on major and minor triads? And they (for the most part) have a root note, which determines the key? Alrighty then, so if you want to play a D chord? Find the DMaj note (between the two black keys) and build the major chord based on that, just like on a guitar. I would recommend that you learn major chords first, and in a 1/4/5 progression, just like on the Guitar. And add the bass in with the left hand, usually the root note of the chord in an octave. There is no H, so how hard could it be? That and it is much easier to play than the guitar because you don't have to coordinate between the strings, and the pick, fret noise, buzzing, string noise, etc... The guitar is much more difficult to play than the keys. Also and finally, find a song that you want to play, then learn the chords and how to play "that song" Then find another song you want to be able to play? Lather, rinse, repeat. I'm self taught on the keys and not half bad ;-)
 
H-
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johnnyV
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Re: Recommendations for learning piano/keyboard 2014/12/23 21:10:27 (permalink)
I fall under the category of playing guitar since I was 7 years old and never really trying a keyboard until it became my input device for midi in 1984. So I wasn't really trying to play the "piano" so much as get my fingers to cooperate and know where the notes were. 
Of course a lot of input was drums.  I was make all my own backing tracks so a single note bass line is a big part of what I do.
So formal lessons were useless for the way I wanted to play.  After all, we are not just trying to record keyboard parts, but a lot of other instruments are involved.  And site reading while useful is not really needed by those of us who have a good ear for a tune. I have learned to site read over and over but I never get real good at it because I end up using it only as a reference and then my ear takes over. 
 So I took Music Theory which was the best thing I ever did musically in my life. You don't have to play an instrument to study Music Theory.
The chops come with practice. I know what to do, I just need to practice it so that you make that connection. Drums are the same for me too.. just play and concentrate. 
I pretty happy with what I can play on my keyboard these days. And I'll say that's the combination of knowing the theory and practicing parts. 
post edited by johnnyV - 2014/12/24 10:05:33

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