Latency tolerance

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BobF
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2014/12/13 12:08:56 (permalink)

Latency tolerance

I realize that ultimately I have to rely on my own ears and wallet to make this decision for myself, but I'm really curious what latencies different folks experience and find acceptable in different situations.  For reference, the most I ever record at one time is a single stereo pair.  I have several devices with USB audio capability as well as an older PCI audio interface.  The worst of the USB devices can NOT operate reliably at a measured round-trip latency of less than 19.5ms. 
 
What are you guys getting?
 
 
 

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#1

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    Anderton
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    Re: Latency tolerance 2014/12/13 14:21:05 (permalink)
    Well, here are my thoughts on the subject, check out #3.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #2
    kitekrazy1
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    Re: Latency tolerance 2014/12/13 14:51:10 (permalink)
     My buffers are usually set to 512 so I get around 20ms round trip.  I don't do a lot of recording so that works for me. If I have to record I can set it lower and revert back to 512.
     From what I've read RME devices are great low latency devices. You can't touch one for under $500.  If I could do it over again I would have bought a Hammerfall PCI instead of the Yamaha SW1000XG and they were about the same price.  Any PC hardware today will not run the Yamaha.
     
    #3
    jimkleban
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    Re: Latency tolerance 2014/12/13 15:11:09 (permalink)
    Latency is a bummer with high counts of VSTs and VSTi's... fortunately, UAD has a somewhat solution to this in that the APOLLO interface has a monitor mode that is virtually  ZERO latency even with UAD plugins installed in the audio path.... you can specify if you want these PLUGINS to be part of the recorded signal or used only for monitoring.
     
    Either way, this is quite an elegant way to get audio recorded into your DAW without any latency. I sometimes send the signal without plugs to the DAW and use the plugs for performance reasons (reverb, eq, effects, virtual amps, etc.) and as such get a good feel performance and a unprocessed Direct input into the DAW as audio (wherein, you can mix and insert plugins during mix down).
     
    I am sure that there exists other solutions but this is the one that works best for me.  Albeit, the APOLLO isn't cheap but it is worth it to me.
     
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    #4
    tlw
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    Re: Latency tolerance 2014/12/13 23:12:05 (permalink)
    At 24bit/48KHz, 12 input channels open, of which one stereo pair is recording and another 8 are being monitoired via track echo with delays on several and a low cpu load reverb buss I get a (measured) round trip latency of 4.8 milliseconds.
     
    So long as I don't use any plugins that add latency of their own of course. I should probably add that I rarely use VSTi synths other than for drums so the cpu load is usually pretty low.
     
    RME really are worth the money of you need stable, ultra-low latency operation. To be honest my previous UA-101 gave just under 10 ms round trip (the minimum possible at 24/48) without a hitch, but any higher latency than that and I start to have problems.
     
    Oh, and add another 3 or 4 ms for the time it takes for the sound to get from the nearfields to my ears.

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    #5
    bitflipper
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    Re: Latency tolerance 2014/12/14 00:39:03 (permalink)
    My interface driver's buffers stay at 2048 samples all the time. That's 46+ ms latency, and additional plugin latency can double that. I'd go even higher if my interface allowed it.
     
    Such high latency is never a problem because a) my interface supports zero-latency monitoring, b) I don't use ITB effects while recording, and c) I don't play software synthesizers and samplers in real time.
     
    I monitor and play outboard hardware synths, set to any patch that's roughly close to what I intend to use later via Kontakt / SampleTank / Omnisphere / Zebra / etc. and record just the MIDI output.
     
    Latency is therefore a non-issue.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    #6
    AT
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    Re: Latency tolerance 2014/12/14 01:22:33 (permalink)
    On FW with the TC Konnekt the newest drivers are down to 4 ms.  W/ USB on the Tascam UH-7000 it is like 12 ms. round trip.   I couldn't work at 20 ms - since I do a lot of soft synths.  Far too spongy.
     
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    #7
    57Gregy
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    Re: Latency tolerance 2014/12/14 09:03:50 (permalink)
    bitflipper
    My interface driver's buffers stay at 2048 samples all the time. That's 46+ ms latency, and additional plugin latency can double that. I'd go even higher if my interface allowed it.
     
    Such high latency is never a problem because a) my interface supports zero-latency monitoring, b) I don't use ITB effects while recording, and c) I don't play software synthesizers and samplers in real time.
     
    I monitor and play outboard hardware synths, set to any patch that's roughly close to what I intend to use later via Kontakt / SampleTank / Omnisphere / Zebra / etc. and record just the MIDI output.
     
    Latency is therefore a non-issue.




    Ditto. I monitor from the interface through a mixer which also has my Yamaha keyboard plugged into  it. I record MIDI using the keyboard's sounds and after recording I will add some VST instruments and effects.
    I have the Saffire's latency set at it's max, 40 ms.

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    #8
    Sidroe
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    Re: Latency tolerance 2014/12/14 09:11:51 (permalink)
    I do everything in the box so a project usually has 1 instance of Kontakt, 1 or 2 Superior Drummers ( one for the kit, another for latin percussion!), 2 or 3 TH2s, 1 GK Amp Pro (or Mark Studio 2/ just bought!), 4 or 5 synth vsts, and all the prochannel toys as needed on the channels and busses.
    Since Craig's eye-opening tweak for lower latency I have been able to hover around 128 and 256 samples with no problems. Even while tracking! I do set the latency back up to 512 for playback when the mixing and mastering is ready. If I trim things down some, I have actually gotten down to 64 samples!

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    #9
    Anderton
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    Re: Latency tolerance 2014/12/14 11:53:06 (permalink)
    Sidroe
    Since Craig's eye-opening tweak for lower latency I have been able to hover around 128 and 256 samples with no problems. Even while tracking! I do set the latency back up to 512 for playback when the mixing and mastering is ready. If I trim things down some, I have actually gotten down to 64 samples!



    Here's the link for the "eye-opening tweak."

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #10
    BobF
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    Re: Latency tolerance 2014/12/14 20:56:33 (permalink)
    Thanks all for sharing your thoughts.  I'm trying out a USB mixer right now, a Behringer unit, that operates really well at 19.5ms RT as measured (it reports 22.4).  The way it's setup I can direct or live monitor as I'm recording - I gotta tell ya, I don't feel any difference.  With Record Latency Adjustment set to the measured number of samples, everything lines up perfectly.  Maybe it feels OK because the vast majority of the latency is on the output (~82%+ of it).  If my thinking is correct, all of the audio I'm playing to is experiencing this, so in effect it's the input latency that matters most for feel; 3-4ms in this particular case. 
     
    I like this unit because I need to replace my old, dead mixer anyway.  I can always add a lower-latency interface later if latency becomes a problem.
     
    It's a shame about my Delta66 and Win8.1.  The big problem now is that even though the Delta may be working perfectly, it will always be the scapegoat for any problems with Sonar that come along.  The Easy Way Out, if you will.  I wonder if Avid *really* thinks that everybody they force to abandon Delta series interfaces will end up buying one of their others.

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    #11
    johnnyV
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    Re: Latency tolerance 2014/12/14 21:06:22 (permalink)


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    #12
    tlw
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    Re: Latency tolerance 2014/12/14 21:30:27 (permalink)
    Avid/M-Audio's driver support for new releases of Windows became so poor that I stopped buying anything by them two or three years ago. A pity really, the Delta series were very good value and being PCI gave great latency times compared with most USB interfaces at the same sort of market point.

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    #13
    KPerry
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    Re: Latency tolerance 2014/12/16 11:08:29 (permalink)
    Depends on you - I can play guitar and keyboard (near) perfectly with a 1024 buffer (as in timing wise, the notes I play might not be right :-)) but one of my bandmates can't record his vocals with anything more than hardware-based ("zero") latency.
    #14
    johnnyV
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    Re: Latency tolerance 2014/12/16 11:38:15 (permalink)
    I'm not sure people understand 100% about latency. 
    First, there is a separation between recording with MIDI and recording audio tracks. 
     
    I can have the LP64 multiband compressor on the master buss and record audio without issue. 
    I have to bypass it when recording midi. There is huge latency. Why? 
     
    Input echo. Monitoring your signal path correctly. 
     
    We have to use input echo to record midi using a soft synth or we won't hear anything. It is well known that "look ahead" plug ins cannot be "on' because of the latency they add. The midi information arrives at the soft synth within 1-4ms. But the processing of the DAW now slows everything to a crawl before it makes it back out to your monitors. So we need to minimize processing and have low output latency. 
     
    We do not have to use input echo to record Audio. We monitor at the interface. They miss name this feature "Zero latency"  to make you think your $100 interface is awesome. 
    Of course it's almost zero. But it's got little to do with round trip latency. It's got a lot more to do with how Sonar and the audio drivers calculate the interfaces latency. 
     
    Your listening to your playback that Sonar has politely adjusted to sync with the incoming audio signal. It is actually playing the DAW output "ahead" of time so this will happen. 
    So your playing to a time aligned playback signal along with your performance in real time at the interfaces analog headphone and output stage. Therefore the term Zero latency monitoring. 
      
    Even using the worlds worst performing RTL interface you will hear no latency or very, very little as long as that input echo is off.  
    Turn on input echo and you will now hear your RTL as a sort of digital delay. 
    Mess with buffers etc and this can be minimized to almost acceptable levels with the right interface. Myself, I'd rather use the direct monitoring. I can't take much more than 5ms and it bothers me. My systems can't get below 12ms. Too much. 

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    #15
    kitekrazy1
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    Re: Latency tolerance 2014/12/16 11:42:59 (permalink)
    johnnyV





     I noticed that ESI cards rate very good and are under $200. The Julia xTe is a PCIe unit and it is up there with units 4x the price. 
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    TremoJem
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    Re: Latency tolerance 2014/12/18 06:43:29 (permalink)
    johnnyv...how can I use direct monitoring with MOTU 8Pre...and correct me if I am wrong, but direct monitoring would not allow me to hear TH2 processing, so some other means of tone for my guitar would be needed to allow playing the parts with the correct attitude, if you know what I mean.

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