Putting together a stage system

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davdud101
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2014/12/14 13:31:46 (permalink)

Putting together a stage system

Hi, everyone! This year, my church is having a Christmas party and last year this same time, we were able to hire out a guy we know really well who does an excellent job with live mixing and studio recording. Sadly, this year our budget was only enough to go to a guy who doesn't really seem to meet my standards.
In my church I'm the recording guy (no one else does it at all!!) and I'm not even that good at all, and though I've done very little live mixing, I'm somewhat becoming fed up with the fact that we're shelling out hundreds of dollars a year on something we could learn/do on our own that would pay for itself within 2 years.
 
So post-rant, I'm wondering what a decent, low-cost ($500?) stage system would run? Let's suggest that we already own enough microphones and we'll only need a desktop mixer and a pair of speakers? Better yet, what is a good pair of speakers (JBL)?

 
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#1

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    Karyn
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/14 15:28:56 (permalink)
    I'll be blunt with you,  the words "decent" and "$500" do not go in the same sentence together when it comes to PA.
     
    I'm not saying you can't pick up something second hand that would do the job for that price, but it won't be the quality you're expecting.
     
    If you can be a little more specific about your needs (number of channels, type of instruments, room/audience size, expected PA size, etc) then I can give you a list of what you need that you can pick from.

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    davdud101
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/14 16:42:02 (permalink)
    Alright- we'll need to be able to input in 3 channels at once: 2 XLR's and one of either line-in/RCA, 3.5mm or 1/4in. Like I mentioned in the first post, we actually own some of the gear already. We basically only need a pair of speakers (correct term?) and a small portable mixer. It's tough to give a space estimate... let's say 60ft x 40ft.
    We're definitely going to be using mics and sound devices (players, laptops, etc), possibly digital keys, I wouldn't even bet on guitar/bass at all.
     
    If possible, could we even think of JUST a pair of speakers? We might actually even be set in terms of a portable mixing setup.

     
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    Karyn
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/14 17:10:59 (permalink)
    When you say a set of speakers...  
     
    You have 3 choices.
    1) Passive speakers, an amp, a mixer.
    2) Passive speakers, a powered mixer.
    3) Powered speakers, a mixer.
     
    From what you're describing I'd recommend a small powered mixer and a pair of speakers.  Don't forget you should have stands for the speakers for them to work efficiently.  If I point you in the right direction I'll leave it to you to choose exactly what you want based on your budget and your better knowledge of what you want it to do.
     
    It would be very easy for me to say you need this, this and this and then you find its not loud enough or whatever.
     
    Gimme 20 mins.

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    Karyn
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/14 17:42:47 (permalink)
    If you can get a mixer setup then something along the lines of these should do for you within your budget.  There are equivalents by Behringer which would be worth looking at, again within your budget.  Don't forget you'll need two, and just like studio monitors, these are mostly sold as singles.
     
    As technical advice, in this price range go for a large speaker size 12" or 15".  The smaller sizes will not give you what you want and are only real any good for one-man-band pub singers and bingo callers. The bigger size will move more air without requiring large movement and thus cheaper to make.   My Powered PA uses 8" drivers, but they were $1500 each...  (the cabs)  and I still want some subs..
     
    An alternative (just within budget) would be a split set like these which includes built in mixing.  Again you'd need two to link together, but you save on speaker stands and a mixer...  you can buy the top unit separate without the sub, but I wouldn't recommend it for the reasons I gave above.
     
    Once you start moving into the bigger names the prices leap up to match.
     
     
    Edit to add:  I tried to pick examples available in US, and the prices shown are current sale prices but are indicative of what this stuff costs.

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    davdud101
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/15 12:13:50 (permalink)
    I'm curious about the second option you posted- What actually does it imply, do you have to chain two together, then control volumes separately? Seems like a little more work 
     
    So I'll be on the lookout for 12"-15". I'll definitely look for things I can try out at locations... Think I could find used ones that are bigger or better?
     
    Thanks, Karyn!

     
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    Karyn
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/15 15:12:39 (permalink)
    You chain two together, yes, but it's easier than it sounds.  You just run a mic cable from one to the other, the line output on the one you've plugged your mics into is post master volume.  You just run the second on max and it follows the volume of the master.
     
    If you need more you can keep adding more units.  If you think you've outgrown it, just add an external mixer and you have the start of a full blown PA setup.
     
    It is a good system (the split sub, not that one in particular), because its easy to mix and match for different requirements and the biggest parts are the subs.
     
    Shop around though if you can. There are several systems on the market at various price ranges. The main difference will be power and features until you start to spend serious money for the extra stuff, like digital networking....
     
    Don't look at the Presonus SL series... they are way out of your price range..

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    spacealf
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/15 21:01:55 (permalink)
    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EON610
    Don't know about the inputs on that, but reasonable price.
    That is a Class D amp, new kind, I forget what that is all about, but since the wattage is so high, then I suppose that would be enough. See if a mixer plugs into that, and get a $100 mixer whatever, perhaps whatever anyone sells. Stands probably cost more, and all the cables and any of that stuff, which will add to the price. But there are other ones also. - 10dB down probably on low end and perhaps on high end. How much down, well, that maybe be a concern, if you like deep bass or really high highs that probably most people can not hear. But probably works fine, using mixer bass and treble control (or midrange) whatever.
     
    12" speaker (one) with a mixer that puts out either mono or stereo (if you want another speaker later on. (no stand if angled on floor or with a stand for the speaker. (or the 15" speaker one but that to me be too much bass.)
    ??
     
    http://www.sweetwater.com/shop/live-sound/pa-speakers/
    Well, I suppose there is something there, I think you can figure it out.
    Or at a local store, or ZZSounds whatever or Musician'sFriend or another one of those on-line places or at a local store GC whatever. Wherever they sell any of that PA stuff (musical stuffings).
     
    post edited by spacealf - 2014/12/15 21:33:42

     
     
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    johnnyV
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/15 22:50:18 (permalink)
    Check out Alto speakers, they are powered and seem to get nothing but good reviews. No body seems to have issues with them. They are not super powerful but read the reviews and you'll soon get a feel for them. And they would be close to your budget. There's nothing at this price point I would recommend. I tried the "B" brand but they blew up after only a few gigs
    http://www.altoproaudio.com/products/ts112a
     
    I really want some Yamaha's or QSC but you can buy 2-3 of these for what those brands cost. 
    I now have the Mackiesrm350 I picked up used for $250. 
    https://www.gearslutz.com/board/reviews/884803-mackie-srm350.html#post9600729
     
    but the sound quality is boring. 
    So shopping around I came across the Alto's.  I want to try them first hand before I buy but every time I'm in a store they are sold out.? 
    I use 12" speakers.  I have a Yamaha passive system served me well for 18 years now.
    http://www.cactusmusic.ca/johns_rig.htm
     
    And my latest trick , the pour mans sub. I just sold my Yorkville 18" powered sub , too big for my Subaru. I'm using a 200 watt Bass amp. Works fine. Just turn the Mid and Treble off and the Bass up to 11. 
    Looking into the price of powered subs as compared to a bass amp, you sort of scratch your head. 
    I'm looking to try a Fender Rumble 12" as my low end. 
     
    Any how, I would see about the Alto 12". 
     
    I also just bought a Mackie Mix 8 mixer for $ 65 Black friday sale.. it's cool. 

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    Karyn
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/16 06:11:39 (permalink)
    spacealf
    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EON610
    Don't know about the inputs on that, but reasonable price.
    That is a Class D amp, new kind, I forget what that is all about, but since the wattage is so high, then I suppose that would be enough. See if a mixer plugs into that, and get a $100 mixer whatever, perhaps whatever anyone sells. Stands probably cost more, and all the cables and any of that stuff, which will add to the price. But there are other ones also. - 10dB down probably on low end and perhaps on high end. How much down, well, that maybe be a concern, if you like deep bass or really high highs that probably most people can not hear. But probably works fine, using mixer bass and treble control (or midrange) whatever.
     
    12" speaker (one) with a mixer that puts out either mono or stereo (if you want another speaker later on. (no stand if angled on floor or with a stand for the speaker. (or the 15" speaker one but that to me be too much bass.)
    ??

    Bare in mind that's an each price, not a pair.  And the lack of inputs would require an external mixer with related connecting cables. + stands,  you'd be looking at $1000+ for a working system.
     
    Still good value, but double the budget.
     

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    Karyn
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/16 06:15:44 (permalink)
    johnnyV
    And my latest trick , the pour mans sub. I just sold my Yorkville 18" powered sub , too big for my Subaru. I'm using a 200 watt Bass amp. Works fine. Just turn the Mid and Treble off and the Bass up to 11. 

    The first band I was in when I left school had a new year's eve gig in the local village hall. We forgot to hire a PA and at the last minute managed to "borrow" a mismatched pair of old bass amps from a local music store which became the PA for the night..  Worked great!  (better than the band, anyway)

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    tlw
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/16 07:44:30 (permalink)
    How many people and what size of building will the PA need to accomodate?

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    spacealf
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/16 14:56:07 (permalink)
    Yes, I know the JBL is for only one speaker, and the other option there is the 15" speaker EON whatever it is with stands and cables and two of them for $1100.
     
    Afterall, Peavey was usually used with a 800 watt amp for a PA, or Kustom Speakers with an amp (for the PA).
     
    http://www.sweetwater.com/c21--Peavey--Studio_Mixers
    http://www.sweetwater.com/c456--Peavey--2_Channel_Amplifiers
    (doesn't include speakers)
     
    Whatever is cheap I guess unless a person wants to spend a lot more nowadays.
    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LSR305
    stuff like that for equipment. (Class D Amps)
     
    Ah the old days like: (Kustom Speakers)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kustom_Amplification
     

     
    It's a Church, one speaker probably be more than enough for quite a while in a 40ft. x 60ft. room, even way bigger room.
    (yes, two speakers would be better, but then it all costs money).
    Anyway, that is up to the person spending the money.
     
    Buying used only may be cheaper if it all works. Not the shiny new smell and shiny new cabinets with new stuff though.
     
    Way back in the old days - used to use stuff like this:
    http://www.ebay.com/bhp/bogen-amplifier
    50 watt amps for a public address system.
    Old days!
     
    But it seems like nowadays, people want to play louder and most people end up going into another room like at the jam sessions because some bands just get too loud. It may be that loud is out, reasonable sound is in.
    ??
     
    Unless you want a Wall of Sound like this in the '70's and are Grateful Dead:
    http://www.audioheritage.org/html/history/jbl-pro/jbl-pro.htm
    26,400 watts.
     
    post edited by spacealf - 2014/12/16 16:05:08

     
     
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    TerraSin
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/16 16:43:47 (permalink)
    If you have some good woodworkers in your church, I HIGHLY recommend building BFM speakers. They can be made for a fraction of the cost you would pay for professional audio products and will be some of the best sounding speakers you will ever hear.
     
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    davdud101
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/20 18:48:33 (permalink)
    Well, today came the Christmas Party. And just as suspected, the sound system the guy brought was horrendous- very unclear and muted, not loud at all, nasally... couldn't turn up the volume or the treble without introducing feedback..... Just horrendous.

    We've been discussing different methods of acquisition: like I said, we own equipment, so I'm considering telling the leaders to buy a tiny mixer and some cables, then we can rent speakers and use my mics! 
     
    That seems like a much better, more cost-effective use of $250 than renting someone's horrible equipment, or shelling out up into the thousands for ours. I know it'll be more over time, but we don't mind the long run since we can't get that when we need it. My church isn't so high-end (read: we paid $250 to rent that equipment)
    I guess I'm asking then... What brands/models am I to look for for rentals? Obviously JBL is on my list.

     
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    spacealf
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/22 14:39:31 (permalink)
    I would not know what they rent if anything. The only Sound Reinforcement System is at the Blues Fest in the Summer, and that thing fed back a lot of times or else the person running the sound could not adjust it, despite all the computer and speakers and board whatever it was. I did not look at it at all, just noticed the fed back and the sound going down almost 3 city blocks (not large city blocks either).
     
    They may rent what they have, but for $250 you can get one speaker (PA speaker which is PA - not Sound Reinforcement System which is larger with mics on everything) but then I am not buying it, so I doubt they rent just anything if there is a place to rent any PA system in the first place.
     
    Only reason mentioned the new JBL PA self-powered speakers is because the coverage is it seems it more than twice as much or about the same for one speaker vs. two speakers of another manufacturer there looking through the pages.
     
    It use to be at one time, building some wood cabinets and sticking in 2-12" radio shack speakers for a PA system (two speakers cabinets total) which is all that could be afforded (not self-powered though - passive speakers). It sounded okay though I guess. Well, who knows, probably was days feeling good from the booze and the distortion in Rock&Roll whatever it was.
     

     
    Renting a PA may depend on the area you live in, whether it is actually just a PA or like I said more of a Sound Reinforcement System.
     
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_reinforcement_system
    which in the end costs way, way, way more.
     
    There is also college courses on sound engineering or acoustic engineering with calculus and other subjects (and probably no guaranttee of a job afterwards like - recording studio like a Sound Engineer.) The professional side gets blurry with all the home equipment out nowadays to have people do it theirselves, or make a name for theirself whatever.
    theirself - means - he/she/space-alien type fuzzy hairy ugly biological meat creature that can talk and act in the galaxy or universe. ( somewhat humor there).
     
    post edited by spacealf - 2014/12/22 14:53:02

     
     
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    eikelbijter
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/22 14:53:48 (permalink)
    Alto speakers are excellent! I have two 10" ones and one 15" and they're all great! Clear sound, built in D.I. with ground lift, light........ unbelievable for the price really.

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    spacealf
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/22 14:58:41 (permalink)

     
     
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    Paul P
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/22 20:36:45 (permalink)
    Karyn
    An alternative (just within budget) would be a split set like these which includes built in mixing.  Again you'd need two to link together, but you save on speaker stands and a mixer...  you can buy the top unit separate without the sub, but I wouldn't recommend it for the reasons I gave above.

     
    I hadn't seen this kind of setup before, but this is a great idea.  Subs down low where it doesn't matter and a line array at and above people's heads.  I've been to a lot of presentations or small shows in a church or community center and often there are these sizeable speakers way up on flimsy tripods with cables going all over the place, crossing ailes and lying around the front floor.  I've cringed every time someone walks over these cables and imagined the speaker tipping over into the people seated in rows just beside/below it.  Someone could die.  At least tape the cables to the floor...
     
    The above speakers are probably impossible to tip over if the bottoms are reasonably heavy and the cables going up are tied lower down somewhere, like the base of the post or even just passing them under the box.
     

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    MandolinPicker
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    Re: Putting together a stage system 2014/12/27 10:10:55 (permalink)
    Here's another option you might look into. Check with other churches in your area, both for the expertise they may bring to the table and the sound systems they may have available. It is not uncommon that as a church grows, it outgrows its current equipment. New equipment is purchased, but the old equipment is still very usable.That equipment may be re-purposed, sold to help cover the cost of the upgrades, or donated to help other churches.
     
    For example, when we moved from our portable gym setup to a new permanent sanctuary, the new setup was a combination of existing and new equipment (60-channel mixer). The mixer we used in the gym (28 channel) was re-purposed for doing recording. There was a need to continue using a portable system, so a smaller mixer was purchased (12-channel) and we purchased a small portable lighting set. We use that portable set around the church for various functions, and occasionally 'take it on the road' to support other churches and their events.
     
    My suggestion is get to know the tech crews at the other churches in your area, attend a few worship tech conventions if possible, and let it be known that you are looking for equipment. You might be surprised what is available.
     
    Hope that helps

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