Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses

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ewb
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2014/01/20 03:49:04 (permalink)
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Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses

Solo Override does not function properly when being used on buses.
 
It actually ENGAGES solo on the bus it is applied to, rather than the proper behavior of preventing other solos from silencing it.
 
This is unacceptable, and ruins my target application: Live input monitoring (with effects) of the externally summed 2-bus. Signal flow is:
 
Stem busses -> external summing mixer -> bus fed from a live input monitor track.
 
If I "Solo Overide" the 2-bus monitor mix, it actually solos the bus..... which of course silences ALL OF THE OTHER BUSES (now sending silence to the summing mixer, and thus the 2-bus itself).
 
Also, another unintended consequence (in anybody's signal flow) is that all individual track solos become worthless on their own. Since the Solo Override actually engages the bus solo, you are now in bus solo mode, and accordingly any individual track you wish to solo must have its corresponding bus soloed to become audible.
 
 
------
 
 
On the same topic:   I feel the response to the master button "Solo / Unsolo All Tracks" is erroneous in its clearing of overrides.
 
Solo Override != Solo
 
It is a special case, put in place by the user for a specific reason, and as such should not be cleared when general solos are cleared. This behavior greatly reduces the usability of the override feature, as you are obligated to never use the Unsolo All Tracks feature.
 
 
 
Please fix?
 
Thanks
-ewb
 
 
 
#1

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    John
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/01/20 06:22:26 (permalink)
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    You may wont to look at Exclusive Solo.
     
    Exclusive Solo mode
    By default, SONAR allows you to solo multiple tracks and buses simultaneously. With Exclusive Solo
    mode, you can only solo one track and one bus at a time.
    When you solo a track or bus in Exclusive Solo mode, all other soloed tracks or buses are
    automatically unsoloed. This allows you to quickly listen to individual tracks and buses in isolation
    without having to manually unsolo other tracks or buses.
     
    This is the normal way Sonar works.
     
    Solo Override
    When you enable Solo Override on a track or bus, that track/bus will never be muted as a result of
    soloing any other track/bus.
    This is a very useful feature when you want to always hear a particular track regardless of which
    other tracks are soloed. For example, you may want to always hear the vocal track while you solo
    other instrument tracks. This can be accomplished easily by using Exclusive Solo mode (see
    “Exclusive Solo mode” on page 206) and enabling Solo Override on the vocal track
     
    This allows one to solo more than one buss or track. 

    Best
    John
    #2
    ewb
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/01/20 06:44:37 (permalink)
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    I do appreciate the response...  but I have looked at, used and am infinitely familiar with all of the solo modes and the various situations they are useful in . I'm afraid you misunderstood my point (the very real error in function).
     
    Here's a clearer and more generalized explanation:
     
    Solo Override a track. What happens? Nothing. This is exactly what is SUPPOSED to happen. The <S> is highlighted to show that the track is in override mode, but that is all. All tracks are still active - that is UNTIL you solo a different track... at which point the override functionality kicks in and makes sure that the Solo Override track is still audible.
     
    Compared to...
     
    Solo Override a bus. What happens? The bus is SOLOED (in addition to receiving its override <S> marking). All tracks not feeding that bus are silenced. All other buses are silenced.
     
     
     
     
    Its a clear and fundamental error - and makes Solo Override significantly less usable for bus work.
     
    In my case, it makes it entirely unusable, as I need to keep my 2-mix source track and its bus in Override mode at all times... which means I'm ALWAYS in bus solo mode.
     
    Making more sense?
     
    -ewb
    #3
    ewb
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/01/20 06:45:39 (permalink)
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    (double post)
    #4
    John
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/01/20 07:06:34 (permalink)
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    Are the other buses also soloed? To me that needs to be the case for Solo Override to work. 

    Best
    John
    #5
    ewb
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/01/20 07:12:15 (permalink)
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    No, they are not.

    Take a group of 4 buses, no solos, no mutes, nothing special.

    "Solo Override" bus 1. You now, unfortunately, have bus 1 SOLOED (error) and cannot hear the other 3.
    #6
    John
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/01/20 07:22:43 (permalink)
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    OK I think I understand what is going on. Say you want to solo one track at a time. In the default solo mode a soloed track stays soloed when another is soloed. This means that in order to only hear the last track soloed you need to unsoloed the other track. This is the default mode of Sonar. With solo override to do the above you only need to hit the solo button on each subsequent track and that track only will sound. No need to unsolo any other track.
     
    In the way you are using your buses I would use the normal mode  not the override mode. 

    Best
    John
    #7
    ewb
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/01/20 14:42:31 (permalink)
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    No John.... I'm sorry but you are still entirely misunderstanding.
     
    I do not want to solo one track at a time. I do not want exclusive solo. I don't want ANYTHING soloed.
     
    Solo Override is a PROTECTIVE measure. It is a shield. It is, in a sense, "arming the solo".
     
    If I have these tracks:
     
    1: Guitar
    2: Bass
    3: Vocal
    4: Drums
     
    I solo override the guitar and I am still listening to everything. The guitar is only protected in the event that I DO solo something else. For instance, I can solo the vocal and hear the guitar still. I can solo the vocal AND the drums.... and hear the guitar still. Etc. This is the entire POINT of solo override.
     
    It is BROKEN in bus mode.
     
    If I have those same instruments, but on buses:
     
    1: Guitar
    2: Bass
    3: Vocal
    4: Drums
     
    I solo override the guitar...... whoops - everything else is gone and I am only hearing the guitar - because it SOLOED *in addition* to arming its Solo Override feature.
     
    Yes, I can now ALSO solo vocal, or vocals / drums / etc and still hear the guitar. But this isn't any different than if I had just soloed the guitar in the first place.
     
     
     
    Solo Override for buses is broken.
    #8
    Splat
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/01/20 15:13:21 (permalink)
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    OK so I think what you are trying to say is
     
    With tracks:
    If you solo override a single track nothing happens until you hit SOLO on another track. As you would expect.

    With buses:
    If you solo override a single bus it actually behaves like a SOLO button, everything cuts out immediately apart from the bus itself (in effect you are SOLO'ing). What you are expecting that nothing should happen until you SOLO another track or bus.
     
    So the question here is, is it by design? It certainly doesn't seem so.

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    ewb
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/01/20 17:00:06 (permalink)
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    CakeAlexS - Exactly, 100%, yes.
     
    I think its a simple and clear coding mistake.
     
    In fact, internally it might not actually be performing the override code at all, despite showing the modified solo icon. You can never know, because the bus is ALWAYS soloed.
     
    X3e patch please? Its kind of a serious issue for me. I have to open a second DAW to monitor my print bus.
     
    The overrides should also be disassociated from the Solo / Unsolo all tracks. Overides are not solos, and shouldn't be cleared with them.
    #10
    ewb
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/01/20 17:28:22 (permalink)
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    lol... I tried submitting a problem report... but the problem report page is broken.
     
    Ummmm.......
    #11
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/01/20 23:12:21 (permalink)
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    Could you report this via Cakewalk problem reporter? Give them the link to this thread. Could you post the issue number here please and keep is updated on the status? Thanks.

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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/01/20 23:13:51 (permalink)
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    Ah ok let is know when you get somewhere thanks.

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    #13
    soens
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/01/21 09:12:05 (permalink)
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    1. I just confirmed that SOLO OVERRIDE behaves one way for tracks and the other way for buses in X2a.
     
    I tend to think it is broken in Track mode.
     
    To me, the Track's behavior kind of negates using the feature, for, how do I now SOLO it? I have to SOLO another track first.
     
    The Bus's behavior makes sense if the intention is simply to isolate that group of tracks to be SOLOed. Accidentally SOLOing a Track not routed to this Bus will render it MUTE.
     
     
    2. >>Also, another unintended consequence (in anybody's signal flow) is that all individual track solos become worthless on their own. Since the Solo Override actually engages the bus solo, you are now in bus solo mode, and accordingly any individual track you wish to solo must have its corresponding bus soloed to become audible.<<
     
    Along with this, if you have a Bus on SOLO OVERRIDE and then SOLO another Bus, they work as intended.
     
    But if you now SOLO one of the Bus's Tracks, that Track SOLO is the only thing you hear. I would think you should still hear the other Bus's output. No?
     
    Steve
    #14
    ewb
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/01/21 12:15:43 (permalink)
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    Steve, I do appreciate the reply and interest, but I must kindly inform you that you're pretty much wrong across the board.
     
    Please refer to the manual about Solo Overrides:
     
    Note: "Wen you enable Solo Override on a track or bus, that track/bus will never be muted as a result of soloing any other track/bus. This is a very useful feature when you want to always hear a particular track regardless of which other tracks are soloed."
     
    soens
    I tend to think it is broken in Track mode.
     
    To me, the Track's behavior kind of negates using the feature, for, how do I now SOLO it? I have to SOLO another track first.

     
    Yes, you DO have to solo another track first... and that is is the entire POINT of Solo Override. If you wanted to solo a track and solo other tracks with it..........  you would do exactly that! There is no need for Solo Override in typical solo situations, as you are obviously not going to somehow silence your original soloed track.
     
    A simple example: You're working on balancing your guitar, bass, vocals and some synthesizers. You are jumping back and forth, listening to these different instruments in the full mix, then individual isolation,  and sometimes in pairs/groups to hear interaction (like guitar / vocal together) etc. But, while you are doing this, you want to ALWAYS hear the drums. It gives your ears a point of reference without having an abundance of tonal sounds littering the sound scape. Or perhaps it keeps you in rhythm better, and you're working on editing all of the aforementioned elements' rhythm / placement.
     
    You do this with Solo Override. And, as is logically and functionally expected, putting the drums in Solo Override does NOT solo the drums (until other elements of the mix are soloed as well).
     
    In Exclusive Solo Mode the usefulness is even more apparent for some. In that same scenario, if you were ONLY listening to instruments in full mix and then individual isolation, but still wanted to hear the drums when you isolate......    again, Solo Override to the rescue. Now you can rapid fire solo instruments and hear them with the drums, but just as quickly drop out of solo and hear the full mix.
     
    In both situations you are actually ADDING extra steps by your expected functionality of track solos. If the Solo Override actually Soloed the track by default, you would then have to UNSOLO Override to get back to the main mix. Not only is that terribly inefficient, but (in Normal Solo mode) is is exactly the same thing as using a standard Solo!
     
    soens
    But if you now SOLO one of the Bus's Tracks, that Track SOLO is the only thing you hear. I would think you should still hear the other Bus's output. No?

     
    This is by design of the solo system, and has nothing to do with the Override system. You are misunderstanding the signal flow.
     
    If you solo Bus A and Bus B, you are listening to every track that is feeding those buses. If you then go and solo something in the track section, you have effectively muted all of the other tracks. If these silenced tracks happen to be feeding one of your soloed buses....
     
    You still ARE "hearing" the silent bus... it just doesn't having any tracks feeding it that are passing audio.
     
     
    I would, however, say that RECURSIVE Solo Override (that functions in a similar way to your expectations) would be a GREAT option for buses. This would, in effect, pass the Solo Override status of a bus back up the hierarchy to all tracks feeding the bus. Then, you would be free to solo tracks and buses to your heart's content without accidentally muting anything related to that bus.
     
    To do this currently, you must Solo Override the bus and MANUALLY Solo Override each track feeding the bus.
     
     
     
    But I digress... regardless of all of this - Solo Override for Buses is broken. It should NOT immediately solo the bus.
     
     
     
     
     
    post edited by ewb - 2014/01/21 12:34:28
    #15
    ewb
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/12/15 05:38:56 (permalink)
    +1 (1)
    I am reviving this post after nearly a year.
     
    I have updated to X3e in that time. The issue is still present and I've seen no further discussion or any acknowledgement from Cakewalk.
     
    I know technical support and bug reporting via the forum is not CW policy, thus I tried to create a problem report 1 year ago, and I tried again a few minutes ago.
     
    Both times I was greeted with the "The Internet is Broken... at least our little corner of it is" screen after clicking the final Submit button.
     
    Tried in Firefox 33.1.1 and IE 11.0.9600.17420
     
    I am still currently being forced to monitor / process my external 2-bus mix via a second application on account of Solo Override being broken for buses.
     
    Thanks,
    -ewb
    #16
    lawp
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/12/15 06:04:02 (permalink)
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    maybe put this thread in the problem reports forum? or add it to alex's big "known issues" thread: http://forum.cakewalk.com/Outstanding-Issues-as-of-X3E-UNOFFICIAL-m3009969.aspx

    sstteerreeoo ffllllaanngge
    #17
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/12/15 09:27:00 (permalink)
    +1 (1)
    I'll chuck it over, maybe Joe can pick this up...
     
    Cheers...
     

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    #18
    ewb
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/12/15 09:29:03 (permalink)
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    Thank you kindly.
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    Joe Connor [Cakewalk]
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/12/18 18:03:02 (permalink)
    +1 (1)
    I'll take a look into this as well, thanks Alex.
     
    @ewb, did you happen to use any "special characters" when creating your problem report? I ran into an issue a few months ago when I tried to submit a problem report with "<" and ">" characters in the title because the script was trying to read it as some other function...or something (my knowledge of coding is borderline zero). Or were you simply using regular characters? Either way I'll see what I can find out. Worst case scenario, I'll submit the problem report on your behalf. Could you just PM me your email address?
     
    Thanks guys!
     
    Joe
     
     
    #20
    soens
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2014/12/22 04:40:05 (permalink)
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    And I see I never responded to ewb's kindly reply back then, so... Thanks for educating me on this cause I don't understand any of it and still don't because I really don't need it or use it that much. There are a lot of features I've never touched and probably never will but I like learning about them.
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    jimst57
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2015/02/04 17:01:11 (permalink)
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    I only had a short time to try this out, but here's what it seems like it is to me. The busses in Sonar seem to work differently with regard to solo-safe than I'm used to with say Pro Tools.
     
    In Pro Tools if I had a vocal track with a send to an Aux track with a reverb on it, I would have to "solo-safe" the Aux track if I wanted to hear reverb when I soloed the vocal track. The "solo-safe" prevents the  Aux track from going mute when another track/tracks are soloed.
     
    In Sonar I don't have to "solo-safe" the bus. It seems to be that way by default. If I have a vocal track with a send to a bus with a reverb on it, I can solo the vocal track and still hear reverb.
    If I "solo-safe" a bus, it seems I can solo other busses, and the "solo-safed" bus still plays.
     
    So I'm not so sure that this is a Sonar bug. It may be by design.
     
     
     
     
     
    #22
    brundlefly
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2015/02/04 18:21:29 (permalink)
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    I presume this was bumped because I linked it in another thread a little while ago...?
     
    The issue is that solo override should have no immediate effect by itself. It's sole purpose is to ensure that a track or bus keeps sounding when another track or bus is soloed. It works this way for tracks. But for buses, it is no different from ordinary solo. Activating solo override on a bus silences all other buses; that shouldn't happen.
     
     

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    #23
    jimst57
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2015/02/05 09:55:29 (permalink)
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    brundlefly
    I presume this was bumped because I linked it in another thread a little while ago...?
     
    The issue is that solo override should have no immediate effect by itself. It's sole purpose is to ensure that a track or bus keeps sounding when another track or bus is soloed. It works this way for tracks. But for buses, it is no different from ordinary solo. Activating solo override on a bus silences all other buses; that shouldn't happen.
     
     




    Yes you're right. I'm surprised this one hasn't been fixed already and that more people haven't reported the problem.
     
    Am I right though in thinking busses don't need solo override in Sonar when soloing tracks? (a reverb bus for example)
    #24
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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2015/02/09 02:20:29 (permalink)
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    Yes buses stay active when active tracks are outputting or sending to them, so it's not necessary to solo override a bus unless you want to hear it along with some other bus that's soloed. In the other thread, the example was wanting to continue hearing the Metronome bus as other buses were soloed.
     
     

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    Re: Broken / Erroneous behaviors - Solo Override on buses 2015/02/10 12:47:53 (permalink)
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    @Anybody
    Is there a CWBRN number for this?
     
    Thanks...

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