Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file - SOLVED!

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Poco
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2014/12/17 15:22:50 (permalink)

Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file - SOLVED!

I searched the forum for this and found the exact same issue, so I know it's not just me...  However, there was no resolution to the issue, so here I am.  When I select more than one track to normalize, the resulting Edit(n) edited wavefile has a W64 extension, and is a combination of the files that made up the selected tracks.  I discovered this when waveforms failed to redraw, even after clearing the picture cache.  The project is pretty big, about 2.5 hours, but I don't know if that has anything to do with it. 
 
I am using X1 build 425.  I have X2, but it seems that X1 is more stable on XP (SP3), and I'm not ready to rebuild a work station that's been configured to my liking over many years.
 
I really need some help on this, as I had no control over the levels I got from the FOH guy, and most of the 48 tracks x 3 days of concerts are low.  I normalize so my compressors, etc standard settings work pretty much the same across various material.  Don't want to argue this point...
 
Thanks.
post edited by scook - 2014/12/18 16:07:53

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file. 2014/12/17 15:51:18 (permalink)
    What version of X1?
     
    X1 was hopeless on my system until about x1e, if I remember correctly

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    Poco
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file. 2014/12/17 16:22:01 (permalink)
    Hey Jonesey,
     
    I looked in the Help/About, and the only version identifier is the build number (425), but I don't think it is specific to a version, as the other entry in the forum was for another version altogether.

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    #3
    Poco
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file. 2014/12/17 17:06:50 (permalink)
    Update... As I am splitting this project up into 1 song per project projects, I noticed that selecting multiple tracks to normalize still combines them, but the file extension is .wav.  Still does not explain why they are being combined, but I think the W64 extension is being added when the resulting file is very large.

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    Poco
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file. 2014/12/17 17:10:01 (permalink)
    Another update.  It does this in X2 as well.

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    BobF
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file. 2014/12/17 17:59:38 (permalink)
    FWIW, I tried several ways with 2 and 3 tracks but could not duplicate this with X3e

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    Poco
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file. 2014/12/18 09:14:57 (permalink)
    Anyone else?

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    Anderton
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file. 2014/12/18 09:59:15 (permalink)
    I could repro with X2, so presumably is an issue with X1 as well. I never realized that "mass normalization" created a new WAV, but did notice that when normalizing multiple tracks, the gain would only increase as much as the highest track would allow - in other words, if one track peaked at -6 and another at -3 and I normalized to -1, they would peak at -4 and -1 respectively. Your experience explains why. As a result, i got into the habit of normalizing individual tracks because normalization doesn't do what you want it to do with multiple tracks, so it sounds like that's what you'll need to do.
     
    Incidentally if you normalize any track in X2, it will create a duplicate edited version. Because this is a destructive process, SONAR has to create a separate temp file in case you want to undo. However because it's a temp file, if you "save as" and specify one file per clip, the temp files go away.
     
    Haven't tried with X3 but will later today.

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    johnnyV
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file. 2014/12/18 10:11:32 (permalink)
    In my humble opinion you would never Normalize multiple tracks anyway. As what Craig just said. If the goal is that all your audio tracks at say -6Db then each track will need treatment. 
    I Tool copy into wave lab to do this action as I find Sonars Normalizing is working blind.
    Your better off just using the Gain if  track is low.  

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    Anderton
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file. 2014/12/18 10:15:37 (permalink)
    johnnyV
    I find Sonars Normalizing is working blind.



    Can you elaborate? I don't understand what you mean, but it sounds interesting 

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    Poco
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file. 2014/12/18 10:46:35 (permalink)
    Here are a couple of reasons to normalize, when, due to things beyond your control, the FOH guy gives you levels that are barely there (but in a 24 bit world are still useable):
    1. DAWS are a audio-visual tool.  What's easier to work with when you have 2 hours worth of 48 tracks with weak signals, flat lines or visible waveforms?  Consider how difficult it is to replace flubbed notes by the horn section with a snip of a good performance from the same track, if you can't see them...
    2.  I, like many others, have mix templates with all of my dynamics processors and other plugins for drums, guitar, bass, keys, horns, etc. already in place.  When levels are way below what you would normally record at, those devices must all be adjusted to sometimes extreme degrees to get proper amounts of compression, etc.  I am talking about situations where channel gain can not make up the difference.
    3.  When you have three shows to pick and choose the best performances of in very short order, #1 and 2 become indisputable.
    4. Never say never (as in "I will never apply fill-in-the-blank" to my work), (and never tell the FOH guy that he is an idiot - it does no good)

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    Poco
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file. 2014/12/18 10:53:58 (permalink)
    Back to the issue at hand.  I have 48 tracks, ~2 hours long X 3 shows.  Doing each track individually means I will be sitting in front of my machine for an extra day, just doing the normalization :-(

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file. 2014/12/18 11:20:30 (permalink)
    Coffee on standby?

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    Anderton
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file. 2014/12/18 11:30:56 (permalink)
    Poco
    Back to the issue at hand.  I have 48 tracks, ~2 hours long X 3 shows.  Doing each track individually means I will be sitting in front of my machine for an extra day, just doing the normalization :-(




    I just tested with X3, and it behaves similarly. I appreciate your bringing this up as now I understand why normalizing multiple tracks is limited by the level of the highest-level track.
     
    As you're verging on digital audio editor territory, the only alternative that comes to mind is using an editor with a batch processing function. Then you could simply drag the project folder audio files into the editor, set up batch processing, push a button, and come back later when they're all done.
     
     

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    Poco
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file. 2014/12/18 12:36:20 (permalink)
    Thanks for your help, Mr. Anderton.

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    johnnyV
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file. 2014/12/18 12:44:45 (permalink)
    By working blind I'm meaning the huge difference in using the Normalizing tool in Wave Lab or Sound Forge. 
    First I like to see what the peak level is, because sometimes a very quiet track will report in a 0db. So now you need to look for that one spot that is peaking etc. Also Sonars Normalizing works with percentage which is totaly weirdness when your thinking db's. Mabey they fixed it in x3 as I admit I haven't bothered with it for 3 years. Tool copy works fine. 
     
    Poco I now see what your doing and agree 100%. I would look into seeing what software is capable of this function. The right tool for the job. 

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    Anderton
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file. 2014/12/18 13:30:37 (permalink)
    johnnyV
    First I like to see what the peak level is, because sometimes a very quiet track will report in a 0db. So now you need to look for that one spot that is peaking etc.
     

     
    If you've played the clip, you can right-click on the peak numeric value in the track view and select "go to Peak." The indicator will be a little late compared to the actual peak due to framing, but it's usually obvious where the peak is if you look about 40 ms to the left.
     
    Also Sonars Normalizing works with percentage which is totaly weirdness when your thinking db's. Mabey they fixed it in x3 as I admit I haven't bothered with it for 3 years. Tool copy works fine.

     
    You can enter the normalization ceiling in dB or percentage. 




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    Poco
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    Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file - SOLVED! 2014/12/18 16:14:47 (permalink)
    According to phone tech support: WORKS AS DESIGNED. 
     
    If you want details on the original issue, look for the other thread with a similar title.  I can't figure out how to change the title of an existing thread...  So, according to the helpful tech support guy (who tried it and did reproduce it), you should NEVER BATCH PROCESS NORMALIZATION.  Excuse me?  I have to process 48 2.5 hour tracks individually BY DESIGN?  He made a rather weak argument for never doing anything to two or more tracks at a time   Anyway, I am going to try putting some sort of gain boosting plugin in each track (he suggested a buss, but that won't print back to the track), and APPLY EFFECT, to see if that works. 
     
    Here's an interesting question:  If batch normalizing of tracks creates one big wave file associated with all the tracks, what else does that too?  You don't even notice it unless you go to "Associate Audio Files" and check it (unless of course waveforms don't redraw, as in my case).  I asked the support guy to check with the developers to see if this really is the way it's supposed to work, and he said he would.  Let's hope he does.

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    scook
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file - SOLVED! 2014/12/18 16:19:14 (permalink)
    I joined this post to the original thread and modified the thread title.
    To modify the subject thread, edit the original post and change the subject line.
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    Poco
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file - SOLVED! 2014/12/18 16:29:03 (permalink)
    Thanks...

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    Anderton
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file - SOLVED! 2014/12/18 16:33:29 (permalink)
    It does seem unusual that the program can't apply normalization to each clip sequentially or whatever. I don't know much about what's involved with batch processing, but it does seem to be a feature with higher-end digital audio editors but not lower-end ones...maybe it's difficult to do for some reason.

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    BobF
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file - SOLVED! 2014/12/18 16:45:27 (permalink)
    Audacity supposedly does this ...
     
    http://audacity.sourcefor...oad/features-1.3-g.php

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    mudgel
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    Re: Normalizing multiple tracks results in a combined wave file - SOLVED! 2014/12/19 04:58:55 (permalink)
    Sony Sound Forge will do batch import normalise and export. Very simple and done much faster than real time of audio being processed.

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