Creating multiple, permament comps from one set of multiple, loop-recorded takes (midi)

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lingyai
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2014/12/28 12:30:57 (permalink)

Creating multiple, permament comps from one set of multiple, loop-recorded takes (midi)

Hi everyone,
 
I am really enjoying discovering Sonar X3. Still have a lot to learn, but have definitely been able to jump in and swim. A lot is intuitive, and it has been super stable for me -- really a strange feeling, spending hours and hours focusing just on the music!
 
I've watched a few videos / read here and there about comping, and am now set to try it with a test project.

In this case I'm comping takes of a midi performance, but --- assuming that comping works with midi the same way that it works with audio, as shown in the tutorials, I think I now know how to assemble a single best composite from many takes.

But my question is,  how could I generate several best composite takes from one underlying set of raw takes?
 
That is, how do I "render" and copy a given comp so that I can paste it elsewhere?

I'll elaborate on what exactly I want to do and then hazard a guess about workflow. Sorry if this is a bit long or Mr Spock-ish, I am just trying to be clear.

In my test project I have a track called Backing, which now has 16 bars of chords which are designed to loop. In the final song, the set of 16 bars will loop three times. Let's call each set of 16 consecutive bars Set 1, Set 3 and Set 3.

In a track called MelodyRoughTakes, I recorded a bunch of melody accompaniment takes using comp recording, with the loop points set to record only in measures 1-16. Great fun, thank goodness for headphones. Anyway, there is some real garbage, but also some good stuff -- more than enough to squeeze into just Set 1. There will be enough to fill Sets 2 & 3 too.

So basically I want to use the comping feature as follows...

In the Backing track, I will copy the 16-measure Set 1, and paste it twice consecutively to the immediate right of the end of Set 1, creating consecutive Sets 2 & 3. So my Backing track will then consist of Set 1, Set 2, and Set 3, all identical, and spanning in total  3 x 16  = 48 measures.

Can I use the comping feature to assemble and "render" one comp for each Set? For example,

-- I create a blank midi track called "All3Comps," route it to the proper synth, and mute it for the time being.
 
-- Using the basic comping workflow, in the MelodyRoughTakes track, I decide on one melody comp I like, somehow "render" it as a midi clip, and copy the clip to start at Bar 1 in the All3Comps track. So this will be the comp used to accompany Set 1.
 
-- I decide on another melody comp I like, again "render" it as a midi clip, and copy the clip to start at Measure 17 in the All3Comps track. So this will be the comp used to accompany Set 2.
 
-- I'd do the same again, to create and place a third comp to accompany Set 3.
 
To hear it all, I would unmute the All3Comps track, mute (or delete) the MelodyRoughTakes, and press play.
 
Does this make sense? Again --  how do I "render" a given comp for use elsewhere?
 
I'd be grateful for any advice.



Sonar Platinum Hopkinton, Windows 7 64 bit Pro SP1, i7-37400QM CPU @2.70 GHz, 16 GB RAM, Focusrite Saffire 6 USB 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tDj_VanH3g
"The limitations are limitless" -- Beck
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    Beepster
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    Re: Creating multiple, permament comps from one set of multiple, loop-recorded takes (midi 2014/12/28 13:32:07 (permalink)
    Sorry... couldn't really follow exactly what you are trying to do but if you want to create multiple comp versions based on the same set of takes all you have to do is
     
    1) create your first comp (as in make all your comping edits) then use the Right Click > "Flatten" option which will create a new lane with a single clip of the comp you made. It will be "Locked" so you can't edit it but you could unlock it (Right Click > Lock/Unlock... can't remember if that's the exact menu entry but it's something like that) and then it can become another clip you could use to create a nother comp.
     
    2) After you have created and Flattened the first comp you can keep editing all the takes to create a second comp, then Flatten it and now you'll have another finished clip you can use to do whatever you want with.
     
    Another thing you could do is if you want to preserve the edits from the first comp (like let's say you don't want to move your splits/fades/etc) but still create a second comp you could clone the MIDI track (ONLY clone the MIDI track with the PRV notes... it should still route to the right synth) and that way you have two copies of both sets of clips you can edit independently.
     
    What you really want is once you get your comped variations done is paste them into a new midi track (clone the track so it is pointing to everything the originals were and delete all the clips/lanes out of that cloned track so it is clean) then archive the original tracks you were using for editing (press the "A" button on the track controls). That way if you want you can re-edit the originals later but you have a track with only your quality comps that you can then comp with each other.
     
    This is actually how I do my MIDI drum parts... and come to think of it it's kind of how I do my audio tracks as well. So step one.... record a bunch of stuff into a track. Create multiple edits and flattening each version to create a new lanes/clips for each. Edit a new comp from the flattened clips. Bingo bango there is my part.
     
    However I use that for writing/composing and then redo everything afterward based on the final comps using them as a backing/ghost track.
     
    Be careful with making lots of splits on MIDI tracks though. It apparently creates a whole new MIDI file for every split so it can add up and Sonar wants to read them all at once during playback so may get hardrive overloads/audio engine stops. If that happens go into Preferences and up your Read/Write i/o cache buffers.
     
    Cheers.
    #2
    John
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    Re: Creating multiple, permament comps from one set of multiple, loop-recorded takes (midi 2014/12/28 13:49:40 (permalink)
    I don't believe MIDI is ever sent to disk as an independent file in Sonar, Beep. Its held in memory. MIDI is tiny compared to audio. 

    Best
    John
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    lingyai
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    Re: Creating multiple, permament comps from one set of multiple, loop-recorded takes (midi 2014/12/28 14:00:44 (permalink)
    Beepster -- yes, "flattening" sounds like the "rendering" I'm after. Sounds like I just need to be sure to use that Lock / Unlock option ... now that I know what to look for I'll hunt it down, big thanks!

    Sonar Platinum Hopkinton, Windows 7 64 bit Pro SP1, i7-37400QM CPU @2.70 GHz, 16 GB RAM, Focusrite Saffire 6 USB 
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tDj_VanH3g
    "The limitations are limitless" -- Beck
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    Beepster
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    Re: Creating multiple, permament comps from one set of multiple, loop-recorded takes (midi 2014/12/28 14:01:28 (permalink)
    John
    I don't believe MIDI is ever sent to disk as an independent file in Sonar, Beep. Its held in memory. MIDI is tiny compared to audio. 




    Hi, John. How ya doin'?
     
    I only say that because I had an actual issue with this and posted about it. I don't fully understand the ins and outs of the situation but scook told me that if you split a MIDI clip it essentially creates two separate editable versions (so that way you can drag out each and edit them in their entirety in the PRV which makes sense). I do not know how it is store but I do know that I was having hard drive max outs and increasing the Read Write i/o fixed it (which was suggested by scook). There is a setting in Preferences to change this behavior (I think it is the one where you disable Non-Destructive MIDI editing) but I'd prefer to be able to have access the entire clip if need be so I didn't change that.
     
    It's been a while but it made sense to me but it would be nice if there was a way to have MIDI clips treated like audio clips in the sense there is a pool of the original clips that gets accessed instead of duplicating them but honestly the whole concept is a little sketchy in my mind so I'm not sure how that would work or what problems would arise from it.
     
    Simple solution... raise the buffers and all is well. It doesn't seem cause any negative consequences on my system aside from starting playback a little slower. No latency problems or nothin.
     
    Cheers.
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    Beepster
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    Re: Creating multiple, permament comps from one set of multiple, loop-recorded takes (midi 2014/12/28 14:04:20 (permalink)
    lingyai
    Beepster -- yes, "flattening" sounds like the "rendering" I'm after. Sounds like I just need to be sure to use that Lock / Unlock option ... now that I know what to look for I'll hunt it down, big thanks!




    Like I said I wasn't following exactly what you are trying to do but yeah... the Flatten feature will give you a whole new clip in a lane and if you unlock it you can then use it to create a new comp. I recommend watching the Comping video in the CakeTV/Cake University section of the site if you haven't already. I'll post it if you haven't and can't find it.
     
     
    Cheers.
    #6
    John
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    Re: Creating multiple, permament comps from one set of multiple, loop-recorded takes (midi 2014/12/28 14:14:34 (permalink)
    I'm doing great Beep. I hope you too have had a wonderful holiday.

    Best
    John
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