Helpful ReplyProject Hard Drive Recommendations

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tonydude
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2015/01/06 17:31:01 (permalink)

Project Hard Drive Recommendations

Today whilst using my PC I received the wonderful message: "Windows Disk Diagnostic detected a S.M.A.R.T. fault on disk ST31000528AS". 
 
This hard drive is dedicated to my Cakewalk Projects and it may well fail. I have a backup via a SyncToy scheduled task and am creating a second manual backup. Later I will be running chkdsk and seagate windows tools on it. 
 
If I do need a replacement, any recommendations beyond the standard 7,200rpm non-green drives?
 
My first choice was going to be something like: http://www.scan.co.uk/products/2tb-seagate-st2000dm001-barracuda-720014-sata-3-6gb-s-7200rpm-64mb-cache-8ms-oem-ncq 
 
~ Tony
#1
Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/06 17:48:02 (permalink)
This isn't an official endorsement, but I'm partial to Western Digital Blacks. I've run them into the ground and just RMA'd the failed units under warranty. It's never been an issue with WD. 

Best Regards,
Seth
#2
slartabartfast
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/06 18:02:20 (permalink)
SMART errors are more detailed/granular than Windows reports, and some errors are more significant than others. It is possible for a drive temperature to be too high for example due to factors that will not recur if a ventilation fan is fixed or the drive is moved to another location, or the weather changes. Some other tools will give you a more specific look at the errors. The SeaTools for DOS will give you more accurate views of the surface than the Windows variety, as you can set it to do a read/write operation on the entire surface but at the cost of destroying all your data. As a general rule of thumb on a critical primary data drive, it is best to play it safe and replace the drive. A drive that passes all of your tests after triggering a SMART alert, is still more likely than one that has not to fail. If you really want to continue to use it, consider using it as a backup drive since you will still have at least one good copy on the primary drive, and it is unlikely that both will fail at the same time.
 
This suggests one of the options for looking at SMART data more closely:
http://www.howtogeek.com/134735/how-to-see-if-your-hard-drive-is-dying/
 
Read down to section 3.5 of this to see some data about the risk associated with various reports:
http://static.googleusercontent.com/external_content/untrusted_dlcp/research.google.com/en//archive/disk_failures.pdf
 
 
#3
tonydude
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/06 18:21:23 (permalink)
Thanks for the advice.
 
I've ordered a 2TB Western Digital Black ordered from Scan and will arrive on Thursday. It's not worth risking it. My second backup is 78% complete, so all should be fine.
 
I mentioned in another post that I was experiencing dropouts and glitches, it's likely that this is the cause. 
 
Thanks again,
~ Tony
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kitekrazy1
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/06 19:01:35 (permalink)
 I actually prefer WD Blues.  I have yet to RMA a Blue but Blacks so far it's 3.  Sure it's a better warranty but a drive bought from a vendor may show 3 years out of 5 left. Then you will have prove your purchase date.  All 3 of my Black drivers failed within the first 6 months.  Removing all of the data is a hassle and an inconvenience. 
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Paul P
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/07 10:50:17 (permalink)
kitekrazy1
All 3 of my Black drivers failed within the first 6 months.



Imagine the odds of that happening.  At the opposite end, I've never had a hard drive fail in 30 years.
I only stop using them when the interface changes.
 
I've been running three Blacks all day long for the last couple of years with no problems.
 

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mettelus
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/07 11:19:28 (permalink)
Whew, thanks for posting that... I have never had a drive fail in 30 years either and was beginning to feel weird by these posts.

I have seen drives in companies that ran 10-15 years non-stop and were finally taken out of commission when the machine was replaced.

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konradh
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/07 11:34:57 (permalink)
I just bought and installed two new drives: a 1 TB rotational (7200) drive for projects and a 1 TB SSD for large sample libraries.  The SSD is a Samsung Pro.
 
I find spinning drives fine for projects but unusable for string and orchestral libraries and the SSD changed my life. The bad thing about the SSD is that it cost around $650 (ordered through Amazon) and it needed a bracket to fit the slot plus an extra cable.  (In fact, I had to use two brackets: one to convert 5.25" to 3.5" and another inside that to covert 3.5" to 2.5".  Hopefully you can find a single bracket solution.)  The brackets and cables are cheap and available at Tiger Direct and other places.
 
String libraries that were unusable before (because they stream from disc) work great now; and projects that use sample libraries load extremely fast.  Even libraries I could use before but that had slow load times are now on the SSD and productivity is way up.
 
Some say write time to an SSD is slower so I don't know if you would want it for projects.  I had not had enough write experience to validate that.  Transferring the libraries to the SsD went fairly fast, though, so I didn't notice a write speed issue.
 
In the past, I could cook and eat lunch while a Vienna Dimension Pro matrix was loading, and even after that, it didn't work well.  I had actually uninstalled Hollywood Strings because performance was so bad.
 
I know you specifically asked about projects but thought some of this may help you or others.  Even though they cost a lot, my next PC will have two 1 TB SSDs.
 
I also back up all projects to an external drive (e.g., Passport).

Konrad
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#8
StarTekh
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/07 12:53:09 (permalink)
tonydude: back up your drive !  go here : http://knowledge.seagate.com/articles/en_US/FAQ/213891en
 
Update the firmware ! Barring that :Seagate Constellation ES.3 1TB 3.5" SATA 6GB/S 7200RPM OEM Hard Drive (ST1000NM0033)
 
Re-build the drive run smart again
 
ES being the drive quality level you should be using !
#9
Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/22 12:04:52 (permalink)
I just saw this news today and figured it would be worthwhile to post here: http://techreport.com/news/27697/latest-backblaze-reliability-data-shows-carnage-for-3tb-seagate-drives
 
Looks like the large size Seagates are leading the pack in failures. 

Best Regards,
Seth
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Paul G
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/22 12:30:45 (permalink)
tonydude
Today whilst using my PC I received the wonderful message: "Windows Disk Diagnostic detected a S.M.A.R.T. fault on disk ST31000528AS". 
 
This hard drive is dedicated to my Cakewalk Projects and it may well fail. I have a backup via a SyncToy scheduled task and am creating a second manual backup. Later I will be running chkdsk and seagate windows tools on it. 
 
If I do need a replacement, any recommendations beyond the standard 7,200rpm non-green drives?
 
My first choice was going to be something like: http://www.scan.co.uk/products/2tb-seagate-st2000dm001-barracuda-720014-sata-3-6gb-s-7200rpm-64mb-cache-8ms-oem-ncq 
 
~ Tony


Big fan of WD Black drives, I have six or seven running now).  That being said, there are different versions of the Black drives.  One has a three year warrenty and the other has a five year, (if I remember correctly).  I don't know if there is a difference between them other than the price.  I've been building my own computers for over twenty years and I only remember one going bad.
 
HTH
 


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#11
mettelus
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/24 02:22:37 (permalink)
Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
I just saw this news today and figured it would be worthwhile to post here: http://techreport.com/news/27697/latest-backblaze-reliability-data-shows-carnage-for-3tb-seagate-drives
 
Looks like the large size Seagates are leading the pack in failures. 



That article pegs one model of the 3TB Barricuda (st3000dm001), so is a bit misleading. I can only speculate as to "why" but failures at such a high rate (which is atrocious) is often due to dielectric breakdown inside the head... almost like a lower data rate (5900rpm) head was used because it "fit the bill" without proper thermal stress testing (again, speculation, not "fact"). The data rate of that particular drive is pretty high on the HDD listing (#17 of 880), so thermal stress seems a probable factor.
post edited by mettelus - 2015/01/24 02:29:21

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#12
Greeny
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/24 09:26:24 (permalink)
Seagate went downhill I dunno what happened, I had 2 750GB barracuddas from around 8 years ago, one failed on me recently and the other is still going strong and now when I hear "seagate" its usually followed by "dont go near them!"
 
These days I use an SSD for my projects, I know it isn't the most cost effective solution but its certainly a lot safer than trusting your projects to a single mechanical hard drive. When your SSD finally wears out the data is still intact and useable you just cant write to it anymore, my recent hard drive failure with the 750GB seagate went a little something like this....
 
1. Got my first SMART warning from windows
2. Went upstairs to get an old laptop harddrive out of storage so I could backup my important files to it.
3. Turned off my pc so I could install the spare hard drive
4. Turned the computer back on to complete failure, bye bye important files.
 
That will never happen with an SSD, so I dont mind paying a little more for it even if I also need to replace them more regularly.
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pwalpwal
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/24 09:55:56 (permalink)
after hassles at work with them (note to self, check what brand/model, it's about a year old, we run vmware instances off them daily) i'm put off ssds right now; the speed benefit (is there any other benefit?) is still outside the cost/reliability/capacity/worthwhile intersect for me
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Paul P
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/24 10:29:51 (permalink)
 
It looks like low reliability is associated with high capacity drives ?
 
I've so far limited myself to 1tb WD Blacks and I think I'll keep it that way for now.
 

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mettelus
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/24 11:06:05 (permalink)
I do not think that it is higher capacity, per se, since media is pretty much outsourced and common to most drives (which was typically 2-platter or 4-platter variations). The heads are designed to run at incredibly high temps (15 years ago it was ~255C/500F - which is damn hot), and data rate is the prime contributor to heat (especially write speeds). There is no air flow through the case (making most heat transfer conductive only), so higher capacity does have some credence as far as a 2-platter (4 head) versus a 4-platter (8 head) drive (but actual "capacity" depends on the media).
 
Quick comment to Greeny's post... the most stressful events to a HDD are startup (unparking the heads) and shutdown (parking the heads)... if a HDD is acting up but running, it is best to backup to an external HDD (i.e. do not shut it off). A HDD head actually flies 1-2 microinches from the surface of the disk (this is why they are sealed in a clean room environment, as a simple molecule of cigarette smoke can tear the write head off).
post edited by mettelus - 2015/01/24 11:14:08

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#16
tonydude
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/24 11:29:35 (permalink)
The 2TB Western Digital Black worked like a charm for me and 'feels' about 25% faster than the older Seagate it replaced. I use that hard drive for my project files.
 
There's another hard drive for soft synth's, since they're mostly reads I'm waiting for the 1Tb SSD's to drop in price. 
 
~ Tony
#17
Greeny
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/26 07:02:32 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby pwalpwal 2015/01/26 08:30:31
pwalpwal
after hassles at work with them (note to self, check what brand/model, it's about a year old, we run vmware instances off them daily) i'm put off ssds right now; the speed benefit (is there any other benefit?) is still outside the cost/reliability/capacity/worthwhile intersect for me


I have two corsair SSDs, both using sandforce controllers both have been nothing but fast and reliable for me. I can only speak from my own experience. One is fairly new but the other is well over 18 months old now and still going strong. I too have heard some terror storys with some other brands, kingston being one that comes to mind for some reason, I heard the cheaper OCZ ones were a bit dodgy too but for me corsairs = happy greeny.
 
No doubt they are expensive compared to a mechanical drive but when your mechanical drive dies thats it it is dead and there aint a lot you can do, at least with a SSD the data is safe.
 
EDIT: Other benefit is silence that's about all, but the speed benefit is significant, I was suprised to find out just how much of a bottleneck mech drives are in a modern PC.
#18
pwalpwal
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/26 08:30:20 (permalink)
good input thanks greeny :-)
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BassDaddy
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Re: Project Hard Drive Recommendations 2015/01/26 14:18:51 (permalink)
Greeny
pwalpwal
after hassles at work with them (note to self, check what brand/model, it's about a year old, we run vmware instances off them daily) i'm put off ssds right now; the speed benefit (is there any other benefit?) is still outside the cost/reliability/capacity/worthwhile intersect for me


I have two corsair SSDs, both using sandforce controllers both have been nothing but fast and reliable for me. I can only speak from my own experience. One is fairly new but the other is well over 18 months old now and still going strong. I too have heard some terror storys with some other brands, kingston being one that comes to mind for some reason, I heard the cheaper OCZ ones were a bit dodgy too but for me corsairs = happy greeny.
 
No doubt they are expensive compared to a mechanical drive but when your mechanical drive dies thats it it is dead and there aint a lot you can do, at least with a SSD the data is safe.
 
EDIT: Other benefit is silence that's about all, but the speed benefit is significant, I was suprised to find out just how much of a bottleneck mech drives are in a modern PC.


Is less heat generated by the SSD's. That would be a reasonable benefit too.

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