gswitz
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StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/13 23:57:52
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We developed DSD support in partnership with TASCAM's expertise in this area. We'll post more data about DSD in the future but some facts:
DSD (Direct Streaming Digital) is a 1-bit format that captures the audio at very high sample rates in a way that bypasses the part of a PCM (regular) converter that has pre-designed compromises in it. By replacing a hardware decision with a software process, the quality of the conversion can be upgraded at will.
One typical use is for archiving high resolution masters of recordings. Subjects in blind tests have found that DSD files played through DSD capable equipment sounds better than equivalent standard PCM files. Note that today SONAR supports import and export of DSD formats. No DSD editing - depending on interest we may support that in the future. Note - To play DSD files at their native sample rate, you need DSD capable playback equipment such as the TASCAM DA-3000. Otherwise SONAR will downsample to the available sample rate. Users can still export to DSD sample rates without having DSD playback hardware however.
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AT
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/14 01:53:46
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Cool. I'm hoping for a Tascam multi channel DSD recorder and the ability to edit on SONAR. We don't need serious DSD editing (yet!), but organizing and cutting in alt takes - that kind of thing. Analog editing like tape, only without the razor (baby steps at first). With the little I've heard of DSD it is smoother - more analog. @
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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gswitz
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/14 09:52:52
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StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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The Maillard Reaction
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post edited by mister happy - 2017/06/29 00:03:15
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/14 10:20:18
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AT Cool. I'm hoping for a Tascam multi channel DSD recorder and the ability to edit on SONAR. We don't need serious DSD editing (yet!), but organizing and cutting in alt takes - that kind of thing. Analog editing like tape, only without the razor (baby steps at first). With the little I've heard of DSD it is smoother - more analog. @
To clarify you can edit as normal after importing a DSD file since it's a normal wave file at that point. What you can't do is edit the raw dsd data directly. The main advantage with what we have currently is that you can export your masters to native DSD.
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The Maillard Reaction
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2015/01/14 10:23:48
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☄ Helpfulby drewfx1 2015/01/14 13:30:27
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post edited by mister happy - 2017/06/29 00:03:37
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Brando
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/14 11:39:51
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mike_mccue DSD to PCM to DSD and the DSD sounds better in listening tests?
I know you know, but he didn't say that (I'll bite). "Subjects in blind tests have found that DSD files played through DSD capable equipment sounds better than equivalent standard PCM files."
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rumleymusic
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/14 11:47:15
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☄ Helpfulby Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk] 2015/01/14 11:49:37
DSD is converted to "DXD" PCM resolution traditionally for editing. It is currently impossible to add effects or edits to a RAW 1 bit file stream, so even super expensive editors rely on PCM conversion. Pyramix, for example retains the DSD resolution for sections of audio that are not affected by an edit, retaining as much of the original format as possible. The truth is, unless all the effects were handled in the analog domain without editing, every single SACD release has been converted to PCM at one point. DSD isn't exatly "smoother" than PCM, which, when converted back to analog is a perfect waveform, exactly what came in. DSD uses a super high frequency carrier wave much like FM radio to piggy back the audio signal as a modulated sequence of 1's and 0's. It avoids a few pitfalls of PCM such has harmonic "ringing" on fast transients, but it also has its own noise and distortion issues. One is not really arguably better than the other. DSD is the format for Super Audio CD's which is copy protected and extremely difficult for a customer to play on non-specialized equipment. Great for major labels, and not a problem for audiophiles.
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The Maillard Reaction
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post edited by mister happy - 2017/06/29 00:04:03
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drewfx1
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/14 13:50:47
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☄ Helpfulby mike_mccue 2015/01/14 13:52:18
mike_mccue while you can probably find lots of CD players that have comparatively crappy sounding output sections.
But that's assuming you're using an analog out on the CD player. And what if the SACD (DSD) player conveniently converts the DSD to PCM when you digitally connect it to something that doesn't do DSD. Really there's two separate points here: 1. DSD provides "higher resolution" (in terms of numbers) than CD quality 16bit/44.1 kHz. There are many arguments about whether this is audible under any sort of typical circumstances and sometimes the people with the least knowledge have the strongest opinions, and many people would rather argue than reason. 2. Assuming "higher resolution" is desirable to someone, there is more than one way of achieving this. In the consumer world, SACD uses DSD while DVD-A and Blu-Ray audio discs use higher resolution PCM (often using lossless compression).
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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The Maillard Reaction
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post edited by mister happy - 2017/06/29 00:04:25
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rumleymusic
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/14 13:55:37
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One issue is DSD is not exactly ASIO compatible. So forget using a USB device or a boutique ADC device like Merging Horus or DAD for native DSD recording into Sonar, at least not yet. You can use devices like the Tascam to record from the high end converters and import that file later on. Though I have owned the original DV-RA1000, and thought the conversion quality was excellent by itself.
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rumleymusic
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/14 14:03:50
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2. Assuming "higher resolution" is desirable to someone, there is more than one way of achieving this. In the consumer world, SACD uses DSD while DVD-A and Blu-Ray audio discs use higher resolution PCM (often using lossless compression). Even DVD-A uses specialized players as it is not a typical format, a real PITA. Blu-Ray audio is my favorite of the new formats, because basically is just a typical Blu-Ray with AES standardized menu option that can be operated with or without video. Allowing for multi-channel, high resolution PCM recordings anyone can produce, distribute, and listen to with inexpensive consumer equipment. Of course, I think the future is still the internet. As longs as we can get away from compressed formats.
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The Maillard Reaction
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post edited by mister happy - 2017/06/29 00:04:46
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TomDuffy
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/14 14:24:58
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☄ Helpfulby mike_mccue 2015/01/14 14:31:32
There are more aspects to DSD that are all important. It's easy to pick on the first one and say "but that doesn't matter". 1. Higher sample rate - in of itself is not what makes the audio sound better. 2. Noise shaped. It's one-bit audio, that'll sound bad if you do nothing to it, but part of the DSD process does noise shaping so you get a super low (below -120dB) noise floor in the traditional 20K audible range. 3. Signals can go over PCM 0dBFS - that makes it less important to do brick wall limiting during the mastering, and you end up with recordings with more dynamic range, or less distortion. 4. Higher processing requirements mean that the equipment is made to a higher standard, and will use better parts throughout. and then there's PCM's dirty little secret : All audio class PCM A/D converter chips are actually Delta-Sigma samplers with a built in a D-S to PCM converter. The cost of the chip directly affects how complicated they make the D-S to PCM converter, and hence its quality. By ignoring the part of the chip that is made to a price point, and grabbing the data directly at the Delta Sigma sampling point, we get a DSD stream. Then we can use software to do the DSD to PCM conversion at whatever quality we want, even throwing the full 64 bit floating point resources of an Intel hex core i7 at it Neither a $1 A/D chip nor a $5 A/D chip can match this. A DSD D/A chip similarly bypasses the internal up-sampling that goes on in a PCM chip, and drives the final output stage directly. It's a case of less is more... p.s. editing at "DXD" 384kHz/24bit means you can keep the shaped noise in the signal, there's nothing audible up there - but the pre-existing shaped noise makes the conversion back to DSD sound better. Tom Duffy (TASCAM)
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/14 14:43:22
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There you have it from the source :) Thanks Tom for the expert perspective on DSD.
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BJN
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/18 18:49:30
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I am very interested where Sonar takes DSD. Tascam have a DSD stereo recorder. Korg were another that produced one. Some have several sinc'd via s/pdif to form a multitrack machine. A Tascam DSD converter and Sonar DSD multitrack replay would be cool one day.
------------------------------------------------------- Magic: when you feel inspired to create which in turn inspires more creation. And the corollary: if magic happens inspiration might flog it to death with numerous retakes. Bart Nettle
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BJN
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/18 19:19:30
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A little more about DSD is it is a more linear method of recording digital and works by sampling the difference of 1 bit to the next 1 bit sample at up to 5.6mhz times per cycle. PCM samples the total bit length at every sampling frequency cycle. It can be graphed as a step. 44.1 khz at 16 bits for eg.
------------------------------------------------------- Magic: when you feel inspired to create which in turn inspires more creation. And the corollary: if magic happens inspiration might flog it to death with numerous retakes. Bart Nettle
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Sycraft
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/18 19:22:51
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Tom's post covered the most potentially relevant part "Then we can use software to do the DSD to PCM conversion at whatever quality we want, even throwing the full 64 bit floating point resources of an Intel hex core i7 at it Neither a $1 A/D chip nor a $5 A/D chip can match this." There is no inherent advantage to PDM like DSD uses over PCM. They are just two different ways of describing a wave in discrete time. However there is an advantage in using them for actual input and output. It is hard to the point of near impossible to build an actual 24-bit DAC, as in something that would produce over 16 million discrete voltage levels. So it isn't done. Instead, you use a 1, 2, or 4-bit DAC that operates at a much higher frequency. The math for doing that is very well understood and established and it works great. However there is the decimation step where you convert from one to the other, and that isn't necessarily as high quality as you might want. Limited budget for transistors and all that jazz, plus it has to happen in realtime. With DSD you eliminate all that and just store a 1-bit high frequency signal. Solid theory at any rate. I don't know that in practice it makes much difference these days. I would question if good converters would have an audible difference. However it can't hurt to have as an option for sure. Do be careful with regards to information though as there is more than a little snake oil and zealotry floating around about it. You'll hear people start to talk about the "purity" of DSD and so on, failing to understand that it is all math in the end :).
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Splat
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/18 20:01:10
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Reminds me.... I just watched BBC Click technology programme on BBC News today talking about "hi-def" audio, the reporter was effectively stating that comparing FLAC with WAV is similar to comparing WAV with MP3. I want my TV license back...
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John T
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/18 20:08:39
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I don't think there's anything inherently exciting about DSD. I just think its presence in the newest Sonar is an off shoot of Cakewalk's commendable tendency to try to stay ahead of the technological curve. Same kind of thing as having a 64 biot version of the program years before that was generally recognised as a desirable thing. I doubt DSD will ever become a general core format for anything much, but it'll be a significant pro-level feature for some.
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John T
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/18 20:09:01
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CakeAlexS Reminds me.... I just watched BBC Click technology programme on BBC News today talking about "hi-def" audio, the reporter was effectively stating that comparing FLAC with WAV is similar to comparing WAV with MP3. I want my TV license back...
Whaaaaaat....
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Sycraft
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/18 20:52:07
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John T I don't think there's anything inherently exciting about DSD. I just think its presence in the newest Sonar is an off shoot of Cakewalk's commendable tendency to try to stay ahead of the technological curve. Same kind of thing as having a 64 biot version of the program years before that was generally recognised as a desirable thing. I doubt DSD will ever become a general core format for anything much, but it'll be a significant pro-level feature for some.
Also just working with what their parent company wants. TASCAM has one of the few DSD recorders on the market and its DSD feature is something that sets it apart from some of its competition. Well, a way to help sell that is if DAWs support DSD and since Sonar is their DAW, they can influence it. Makes sense for the hardware and softwer to play well together.
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Anderton
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/18 20:56:53
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AT Cool. I'm hoping for a Tascam multi channel DSD recorder and the ability to edit on SONAR.
Well, you sorta have the first part. You can link multiple DA-3000s together for multitrack recording.
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jimkleban
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/18 21:57:41
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I remember researching DSD years ago but by no means an expert nor do i confirm what I am about to say ss accurate rather than what I remember: The benefit of DSD to the listener was that it converted to real audio more accurately than the other digital formats... now, don't know if that was because it would sound better or that if the converters into devices could recreate the audio better. As far as I know, I have no need for DSD myself but perhaps some mastering folks do? Jim
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AT
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/19 00:06:58
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A nice 12-24 DSD track recorder/playback machine going through analog hardware would be nice - use it like a reel to reel. If you could do some editing, like switching between takes, would be even better in SONAR. Best of both worlds. Is there any reason you couldn't "splice" DSD tracks in software w/o going pcm? @
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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Sycraft
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/19 00:40:12
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AT A nice 12-24 DSD track recorder/playback machine going through analog hardware would be nice - use it like a reel to reel. If you could do some editing, like switching between takes, would be even better in SONAR. Best of both worlds. Is there any reason you couldn't "splice" DSD tracks in software w/o going pcm?
At the moment the issue would be processing those tracks. In general, I don't know if there are many, if any, algorithms for operating on PDM sound. All the (very few) DSD systems I've heard of use what they call "DSD wide" which takes DSD but converts it to 8-bit PCM at the DSD frequency or use "DXD" which is just high sample rate PCM. Either way it is an effective conversion from PDM to PCM. Specifically, all the FX and synthesizers you currently have work in PCM, so the data would have to be converted to be sent to them, and then converted back. As a practical matter, it isn't likely to be much more than a curiosity and playing for engineers and audiophiles. Goes double since compressed formats are the thing these days. Broadcast, cinema, streaming, etc all use compression and all those compression algorithms need PCM input because of the way they deal with sound.
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mudgel
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/19 07:05:17
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Actually Tascam would side by side with Sonar under the Gibson umbrella.
Tascam is to be a distribution channel. Off course there would be software technology in both camps that could float back and forth. Just being pedantic. Craig also mentioned that Tascam were now doing drivers for their own gear in house now, so there will be some significant software development talent in that arm of Gibson as well.
All this bodes well for Cakewalk. Perhaps some real solid software and hardware collaborations in the future that will bring more lasting results than previously with the previous owner.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?
2015/01/19 09:43:56
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Also DSD is a lot more "consumer" in Japan than it is here. This is another reason why its important for us and Tascam.
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