mwall
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Why does Sonar dropout when drumming nearby
Hi. My son wants to run a techno track when playing live with his band, and I've set his songs up in Sonar where one audio track is just the techno track, and the other track is his click track, which also includes the techno plus some voice queues. The tracks play fine until the band starts playing drums and guitar, then it drops out and stops playing. Obviously, this will not work playing live. Has anyone else experienced this? Why does it do this, and is there a way to make it work? Putting some foam under the laptop seemed to help some, but it still drops out after about 30 seconds. Running X2 on his laptop, which is a Gateway with an i5 processor. Maudio fasttrack interface for the techno track, and the computer's internal RealTek sound card for the click track. Thanks in advance for any help.
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John
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Re: Why does Sonar dropout when drumming nearby
2015/01/26 23:28:59
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Well two things may be a possible cause. I wouldn't use two sound cards for outputting. If the drums are close as you suggest it maybe jarring the laptop too much.
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mettelus
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Re: Why does Sonar dropout when drumming nearby
2015/01/26 23:31:46
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A hard disk drive has to maintain track in order to write to disk, so it is possible that the buffer is filling up and not enough writes are occurring to empty it. This is not often common since laptop drives are designed to higher specs than desktop drives, but when you mentioned foam helps, this is possible. Another is heat if the laptop is not venting properly, but seems it may be vibration-related (since the band triggers it). If due to vibration, getting the computer as far from the band as cabling will allow will help. More foam may also help, but also be careful that the laptop cannot fall, as well as increasing the Disk I/O buffers (in preferences). Also, I *believe* it is possible to record to a thumb drive (I have never done this), which would require creating the project folder (using per project audio) to that thumb drive. The advantage would be that there are no mechanical parts subject to vibration this way, so writing to the thumb drive would not be affected. When the band is playing, is the table the laptop was on vibrating badly? Could you feel it with your hand?
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mwall
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Re: Why does Sonar dropout when drumming nearby
2015/01/27 00:04:19
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I want to make it clear that this is strictly playing two audio tracks at once, with absolutely no recording. One track is directed to the PA for the audience to hear. The other track goes to the in-ear monitors. I know it's best to use one sound card with two stereo outputs, but my only usb interface is this one with only one stereo output. So I'm having to use the internal sound card for the click track that goes to the in-ear monitors. It won't work to have the laptop in a different room, as the drummer has to have access to it to control it. This is a pretty common set up in live settings, so I'm not sure what the problem is.
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John
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Re: Why does Sonar dropout when drumming nearby
2015/01/27 00:36:45
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Maybe using a foam pad under it might help. Also a very solid stand to hold it may help too. I should think the kick would be the main cause. The disk doesn't have to be writing to have this problem. Reading could cause the problem. Try using a USB stick for storing the project. If you can feel the kick so can the laptop. I don't think its the two cards though you could have sync issues with that but I don't think they are the problem with dropouts.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Why does Sonar dropout when drumming nearby
2015/01/27 01:43:40
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I bet the band is loud! LOL Be careful putting foam and things under a laptop. Laptops often depend on air flow they get from under and blocking it off may cause overheating. John's idea of streaming the tracks from a USB stick sounds solid to me. It is a pity that all the music out front has to be mono though. That is a serious compromise in my opinion. Perhaps some sort of multitrack hardware playback device that is designed to handle live situations might be an option.
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John
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Re: Why does Sonar dropout when drumming nearby
2015/01/27 02:31:56
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Jeff Evans I bet the band is loud! LOL Be careful putting foam and things under a laptop. Laptops often depend on air flow they get from under and blocking it off may cause overheating.
Excellent point. My new old laptop has a fan. Perhaps a board on the foam might help.
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: Why does Sonar dropout when drumming nearby
2015/01/27 02:47:37
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The table/level on which the laptop is positioned is crucially important, too. If the table is very feeble, it can resonate so much it's actually shaking. Also, the laptop should not be in front of the kick or a (loud/bass) loudspeaker. The sheer airwave shock can disturb the HDD. Put bricks first, then foam, then chipwood plate, and if necessary, still pieces of foam under each corner of the laptop. And, as mentioded, do not forget ventilation.
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BRuys
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Re: Why does Sonar dropout when drumming nearby
2015/01/27 02:58:18
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There has got to be something physical going on, and as others have said, I would bet that the vibration from the band is interrupting the hard drive. Short of accoustically isolating the laptop, the best option would probably be to uprade your laptop's hard drive with an SSD, which is completely immune to vibration. Probably not what you wanted to hear, but it would be a permanent solution to your problem, and your laptop would be much faster as a happy by-product. SSDs have come down in price a lot in the last 12 months or so.
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ProjectM
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Re: Why does Sonar dropout when drumming nearby
2015/01/27 08:08:46
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I have played several hundred shows with a laptop in the same setting. And I've started out simmilarily to what your setup is. I was using a mid-range laptop for this but there was two things essential to make it work when the environment of the laptop gets LOUD (and possibly hot): a) One soundcard for ALL the audio. For some reason the machine easily got a hickup when running anything from the internal sound card. Sonar has some serius issues with this. Live may give you better results, however, two soundcards is not ideal in any setting. b) SSD or a very fast harddrive with big and fast buffers. I've used both and they worked well. SSD is the only sollution that I could rely on 100%. The USB memory stick thing sounds interesting and I think we tried it once. If that works it's excellent, but you might still have a problem on a stage with big subs and vibrations. If at a venue with lots of warm lights, get a fan or place the laptop between the drummer and the fan. We also used one of those little USB fan things, pointed from the side onto the laptop's keyboard. This usually helped a little. Or you could invest in a super powerfull bad ass i7 fitted mega laptop with billions of megaherz and bytes! But that is probably more expensive than getting an interface with two stereo outs and an SSD
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KPerry
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Re: Why does Sonar dropout when drumming nearby
2015/01/27 08:34:55
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I'd also check cables...loose/dodgy cables are an oft-missed cause of random problems!
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KPerry
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Re: Why does Sonar dropout when drumming nearby
2015/01/27 08:34:55
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I'd also check cables...loose/dodgy cables are an oft-missed cause of random problems!
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dcumpian
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Re: Why does Sonar dropout when drumming nearby
2015/01/27 08:38:09
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Also, check that your USB connection isn't loose. The vibrations may be causing intermittent disconnects. Regards, Dan
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Splat
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Re: Why does Sonar dropout when drumming nearby
2015/01/27 11:57:01
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Update your interface drivers and firmware. Perform a defrag of your hard drive. Have a look at latencymon.
Unless there are really really bad vibrations which may mislead a member of the audience that they are having a minor earthquake I'm not convinced there is something physical going on...
Yup check the cables..
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mwall
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Re: Why does Sonar dropout when drumming nearby
2015/01/27 15:37:31
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Hey, thanks everybody. They do play pretty heavy music, as you can reference here: http://www.reverbnation.com/amongfallenkings. But the techno is pretty key to some of their music, so they wanted to incorporate that live in an upcoming battle of the bands event they're in. I realize that one interface is best, but the fact that it plays fine when the band is not playing live should mean potential conflicts are not causing the dropouts, right? They have a practice session this afternoon, and they'll try out some dense foam under the laptop, at least for one song, just to see if that fixes the problem. I also have some rubber and cork squares that I'll have him try out under the corners of the laptop. I've given him the thumb drive as another option to try. Thanks again.
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Splat
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Re: Why does Sonar dropout when drumming nearby
2015/01/27 16:58:01
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> I realize that one interface is best, but the fact that it plays fine when the band is not playing live should mean potential conflicts are not causing the dropouts, right? Not really... it could mean dodgy drivers (not handling record very well), fragmented drive (more read/writes), a process screwing up your latency that is fine during playback. Recording may use different resources/more CPU power. Oh and BTW if there were any underlying hardware fault (temporary or otherwise) I would be looking at the windows event viewer for it. Generally an underlying hardware fault would crash your entire OS (unless it's cables or something external plugging into it).
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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bitman
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Re: Why does Sonar dropout when drumming nearby
2015/01/27 20:12:31
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Make sure the stop on suck threshold is set high enough in (I think) preferences? - Just playin' around now ...
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mettelus
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Re: Why does Sonar dropout when drumming nearby
2015/01/28 07:42:18
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Another option to consider is if this is only one track to put it in something that runs off an SD card (like cellphone/tablet). Most take a generic stereo 1/8" out and can run the audio track with a generic player with the right cable (stereo 1/8" split to 2 mono 1/4"), but that cable would be unshielded (possible grief caused here).
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