Helpful ReplyWhy do PA systems sound so bad?

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bitflipper
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2015/01/21 16:45:14 (permalink)

Why do PA systems sound so bad?

Serious question. I'd especially like to hear from those of you with extensive FOH experience. 
 
In my experience, PA systems generally sound bad. In the 60's they weren't powerful enough. In the 70's they compensated for that by stacking ever-larger piles of speakers and amps, but all it did was get louder - at least, for the audience close to the stage. Those in the back still couldn't hear it. Subwoofers made their appearance in the 80's, extending the frequency range but also assuring that the folks in the back heard amorphous mush, but with bass. In the 90's we saw the arrival of arrays, which helped with coverage but did not sound any better. Nowadays we have high-tech computer-controlled systems that can compensate for different-shaped rooms and avoid feedback. But they still range from just OK to unlistenable.
 
What prompted this rumination was going to see Rain (the Beatles tribute band) last night. It was an acoustically-treated 1,500-seat theater, and a full house with 1,500 acoustical absorbers in the seats. A lot of thought had gone into putting that show together, and it was top-notch in every regard but one: the PA. It sucked. Surely, an act that went to such lengths to put on a great show would do anything they could to make it sound as good as possible out front. But it sucked. It made me sad.
 
So why do you think live hi-fi sound is such an unattainable goal? Is it physics?


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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batsbrew
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/21 16:51:18 (permalink)
ALL I KNOW IS....
 
i spent 6.5 years full time on the road,
and part of my responsibilities was helping setup and tweak the PA (in addition to setting up our light show, that's another story)
 
we purchased a frequency analyzer,
that would put white/pink noise thru the system,
and would help us EQ the system flat.
 
it had a memory, and at least two memory presets.....
we set up for the room empty,
then on the busy nights, we would tweak the room EQ until it was dialed in,
mid week we would do a quick 're-set' using the two EQ settings to find the happy medium.
 
this was a full range 4-way PA, with 18" folded horn cabs for subs, 12" drivers for mids, horns for high mids, and bullets for highs.
 
we ran it with Crown and Yamaha Power amps, we had TONS and TONS of power.
 
we ran a 24 channel allen and heath board, with 31 bands on the pa, and 31 bands on the monitors,
which had their own mixer and power amps.
 
 
this system ran like a charm, and sounded awesome always.
well, almost always.
 
LOL
 
there was always a 'room of doom' that had such terrible acoustics, that nothing could be done,.
 
 
i say, if the PA sound bad, it starts with the soundman,
sits in the middle with the quality of the gear,
and ends with the room acoustics.
 
 
2 of those you can fix.
 

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drewfx1
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/21 17:19:16 (permalink)
I think rock music sounds lousy in large (even semi-) reverberant spaces.
 
Symphonic music is a totally different story.

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Karyn
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/22 07:15:27 (permalink)
Everything Bat said.
 
The main issue in the past was simply that high power PA speakers sounded awful.  Seems you could have quality OR volume, but not both.   I was always told it was because they gained extra volume by using "tuned" cabs,  which is fine for subs but leaves holes and peaks in the spectrum for Mids.
 
It has been well known and accepted for a long time by all manufacturers that PA does not equal HiFi and us poor FOH girls are left to fix the mess with pink noise and GEqs.
 
Things are starting to change though with more emphasis being placed on quality by the PA manufacturers.  I know I keep banging on about Presonus...  but it's what I've got and I know what it does, but take it as an example. (Other manufacurers are available) Their new PA range (designed by WorxAudio I think) was designed from the start to give HiFi output at PA volumes.  The cabs are active (so no chance of messing up the sound with impedance mismatches) and include DSP that gives 31band GEq, 8 band PEq, and delay.   All the drivers are coherent phase matched, including when linking to the matching subs.  There is all sorts of software trickery going on.
 
The net result is not what you'd expect from your home audiophile HiFi, but it's a darn site better than we had in the past.
 
 
The thing that Bat missed though is audience expectation.  Since the introduction of subs, people expect to be able to feel it as much as hear it.  To me, this is the main difference between a rock gig and a symphonic gig.  For symphonic you're trying to boost the volume while maintaining as much clarity and quality as possible so you're not altering the original sound of the instruments.  Whereas a rock gig, the FOH engineer is as much responsible for creating the sound of the band as the musicians, if not more...  and the audience want that "live" sound.
 
I mostly work with cover/tribute bands and most of my job is to make them sound like the band they're trying to emulate.  As long as they can play the right notes at the right time the sound is down to the FOH eng.

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UbiquitousBubba
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/22 09:17:34 (permalink)
All I know is that great FOH engineers are magicians. I realized this when one of them turned me into a newt.
 

 
I got better.
 

 
See?
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UbiquitousBubba
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/22 09:54:21 (permalink)
Anyway...
 
I know what you mean about the sound. A very long time ago (1982), I saw Asia perform at the Auditorium Theater in Chicago. The venue was not normally used by rock bands. The urban legend stated that the management of the Auditorium Theater chose not to rent their hall to rock bands due to the destructive nature of the fans. The acoustics in that place are fantastic. That night, the band sounded incredible. The sound was crystal clear. I had never heard such a great sounding live show. 
 
After attending many other shows in venues large and small, it became obvious that this was not a technology issue. I saw Rush play at the United Center in 2002. The place is a gigantic barn. It's designed for large sporting events, so the acoustics are beyond terrible. The sound of the band was unbelievably good. I was shocked at how clear everything was and how I could hear absolutely everything in the mix. It was loud, with chest thumping presence, but not fatiguing. It was nearly perfect. A year or so later, I saw them perform at an outdoor show. The sound was horrible. Lower mids overwhelmed the other frequencies. Audio in the 3khz-5khz range frequently vanished and piercing spikes around 12khz made you wince. It was nearly unbearable.
 
The FOH engineer can make or break the show. A great one will make the band sound their best. A bad one will make them sound like a bad garage band. It's not about technology, gear, or software. Truly great engineers have the best hardware between their ears. 
 
 
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Karyn
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/22 10:10:01 (permalink)
That must be where I'm failing,  it's mostly soft between my ears..
 
 
Outdoor gigs are HORRIBLE for a FOH eng.  The different freqs can be blown around in the wind like smoke.  It all down to variable air density..
My favourites are outside, but in a large marquee.  You get all the advantages of being outdoors, no reflections, almost no noise limits, and all the advantages of being indoors..  no wind, no rain. (Just watch for rain collecting in sags in the roof...)

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batsbrew
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/22 10:53:42 (permalink)
Karyn
The thing that Bat missed though is audience expectation.  



no, i didn't miss it, and the band as a whole, was very aware of 'perceptions' of 'proper' mixes, versus proper mixes.
 
LOL
 
a lot of times, the success of the band in a club, as entertainers, has just as much to do with having a good full range sound at a LOWER volume so that the waitresses can hear their orders, and so that the glasses don't rattle at the bar.
 
LOL again....
 
there are so many variables that go towards having a 'good gig', besides decent sound.
 
 
but, fact remains, we always worked hard at finding the best compromise, 
and for most good soundpeople, that is the task
 
too much low end sux,
and that is the single biggest complaint i hear from almost everyone i know.

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batsbrew
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/22 10:55:49 (permalink)
also, the low end problem usually comes from having the wrong kind of low end, subs in particular..
 
i mentioned folded horns with 18's, 
that's because we were playing bigger clubs.
 
in smaller clubs,
we actually had 'sugar scoops' that used 15" front mounted,
and those kept the low freq's from trying to drive thru the back walls and out into the parking lot.
 
 
low end freqs take room,
and in small clubs,
it never comes together.
 
 

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Karyn
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/22 11:24:16 (permalink)
What I meant was, there are good mixes, "proper mixes", and "audience expectation".
 
For most Rock type gigs nowadays you get a slight lift around 100 - 150 Hz built into the PA by default.  If it's not there the FOH will add it to the main Eq.  It gives ....  ummm...  whooomph!! to the kick and bass and came about when we started adding subs to standard systems without proper crossovers.  Yes, the sub extends the response down to 40 Hz, but you get a boost at the overlap.
It's that sound that audiences have come to expect, rightly or wrongly.
 
Of course, it's different rules altogether if you play synthpop or classical...

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batsbrew
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/22 11:38:38 (permalink)
i'm still waiting for the brown note to occur.
 
i don't want to be there,
i just want to hear about it.
 


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Karyn
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/22 11:55:45 (permalink)
The brown note actually occurred once back in 1999-2000.   It was at a Bad Manners gig..  They play a ska cover of "Black Night", which is actually very good if it gets past the intro...
 
A big roll around the toms, everyone hits the first note dead on cue, along with every house light...      Blackout!!  Silence...    Brown note from behind FOH desk... 

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bitflipper
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/22 13:02:24 (permalink)
So what I'm hearing is an affirmation of what I'd always assumed: it's about acoustics #1, FOH talent #2 and gear #3.
 
IOW, you can't buy your way out of the dilemma, just like you can't buy your way to quality in the studio.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/23 08:12:48 (permalink)
batsbrew
 
there was always a 'room of doom' that had such terrible acoustics, that nothing could be done,.
 
 
i say, if the PA sound bad, it starts with the soundman,
sits in the middle with the quality of the gear,
and ends with the room acoustics.
 
 
2 of those you can fix.
 



I think Batsbrew has it spot on here. I am lucky enough to live near a venue called The Stables Theatre in a village called Wavendon just outside the city of Milton Keynes in the UK. It is run by the singer Cleo Laine and was managed by her and her late husband the musician Johnny Dankworth. The main room is a 1500 seater auditorium called the Jim Marshall Theatre which has the perfect combination of great equipment, sound engineers and most importantly, was designed and built totally for acoustic perfection. I have been to many many shows here over the years, from solo singer / guitar to full rock performances at thundering volume. In fact, the last two gigs I have attended there cover both those extremes - Nick Lowe, and the classic 70's rock inspired prog rock band, Mostly Autumn.
 
The sound is never less than stellar, world class artists love to perform here, even putting it on their tour itinerary when they are selling out far larger venues on the same tour, and mainly because of the acoustics.
 
So, to answer your question Bit, I believe the venue has to be sonically designed for the task, which is a rare thing, and therefore PA sound becomes a hit and miss affair...
 
EDIT: For those interested in the UK - http://www.stables.org/ - If you plan to see an artist or band on a UK tour, it is well worth the extra mileage to book here - but you have to get in early...


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Guitarhacker
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/23 09:23:59 (permalink)
Reasonable volume levels are a factor too.  I've been to shows where the object seemed to be lets see if we can rip the cones from the baskets...
 
The FOH talent.... stage talent..... and equipment are important and in the proper order I believe.   All 3 coupled with reasonable volume for the venue/room go into the quality the audience hears.

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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/23 15:28:40 (permalink)
I saw Nine Inch Nails a few years ago in a notoriously bad acoustic environment.
 
The sound was close to impeccable. As loud as it was, it was surprising clear and well-defined. I even thought it was a bit sterile, if anything.
 
That's the only concert I've seen which managed to be both loud and that clean. I usually don't like concerts all that much because clarity is the first thing to be sacrificed. It's just too loud.

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sharke
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/24 00:23:10 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Rain 2015/01/24 00:30:13
Maybe this is why I've never been that keen on gigs. Pretty sure my tinnitus originated from the metal gigs I attended in the 80's - Metallica, Dio, Helloween, Onslaught, Slayer etc. I'd be half deaf for the rest of the evening and some of the next day too. I don't ever recall thinking "this sound quality is great!" I just remember a wall of noise and wishing they'd turn it down a tad.
 
Some years ago I went to see a Zappa tribute band at a small venue. The musicians were stunning virtuosos and what they were playing was incredible, but the PA was so loud and distorted that I walked out after 20 minutes. I really think that a lot of people have cloth ears and don't even care.
 
It really makes you appreciate the sound of unamplified musicians.

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Karyn
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/24 07:44:49 (permalink)
There's no excuse for distortion in the PA.  That's just a sign of an inexperienced FOH eng whose gear is not up to the job.
 

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bitflipper
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/24 08:35:54 (permalink)
Herb's spot on with the volume comment. There is going to be an ideal volume range for a given system/room/audience/genre. Exceed it at your own risk. This is something I've found to be consistently true over the 50 years I've been performing, that sometimes that final tweak you need is just lowering the mains by 6dB.
 
I attended a concert at NAMM years ago, in a hotel ballroom. It was sponsored by a PA manufacturer, who I guess assumed that the best advertisement for the gear was to show how loud it could get. Imagine stadium volume in a 25,000 square foot room with an audience of perhaps 300 people. The musicianship was stellar, but the sheer amount of air moving was unbearable. I lasted about 20 minutes, which was 19 minutes longer than I should have subjected my ears to it.
 
The odd thing was that most of the audience didn't seem to notice or mind, including the Cakewalk staff who were recording the performance. I'd love to hear that recording, just to hear what the concert actually sounded like. 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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Karyn
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/24 12:57:31 (permalink)
When I started doing FOH for our annual bike club rally one of my jobs was to collate info beforehand regarding noise levels for submission to the local council as part of our entertainment license.
 
It seems there are accepted levels for various events that impact on audience enjoyment.
for Live performances from rock/pop bands your looking in the region of 98 - 103 dbA in the audience.
Much below that and you loose that "live something" that sets apart a live performance from simply playing back a recording, even if it's a live recording.
 
of course, much above that and the audience starts backing away....  Which is where the rear fills kick in and push them back to the front again

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sharke
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/24 13:09:16 (permalink)
Karyn
When I started doing FOH for our annual bike club rally one of my jobs was to collate info beforehand regarding noise levels for submission to the local council as part of our entertainment license.
 
It seems there are accepted levels for various events that impact on audience enjoyment.
for Live performances from rock/pop bands your looking in the region of 98 - 103 dbA in the audience.
Much below that and you loose that "live something" that sets apart a live performance from simply playing back a recording, even if it's a live recording.
 
of course, much above that and the audience starts backing away....  Which is where the rear fills kick in and push them back to the front again




Don't know if you ever saw it Karyn but years ago there was a documentary on TV in the UK (or was it a news report? Can't remember...) about noise levels in clubs. They had an expert go into some of the bigger dance clubs and measure sound levels. I seem to remember him walking out after a couple of minutes in disgust saying that the levels were so ridiculously high that you'd likely suffer permanent hearing damage after about 20 minutes. I think part of the problem with nightlife like gigs and clubs is that people get drunk and/or high and they really have no judgment. Back in those early UK raves, especially the "illegal" ones, we never once stopped to think if it was too loud - the louder the better. There is definitely a fine line between exciting and dangerous. Being at a gig which is loud enough to be exciting while not feeling dangerous or uncomfortable is absolute bliss, and I applaud any technician who knows what that level is! 

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Karyn
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/24 20:14:34 (permalink)
sharke
There is definitely a fine line between exciting and dangerous. Being at a gig which is loud enough to be exciting while not feeling dangerous or uncomfortable is absolute bliss, and I applaud any technician who knows what that level is! 

As any good eng should,  I use a level meter. I aim for about 100dbA,  then I enable a hard limiter on the desk output, mainly to catch the occasional snare or cymbal hit.

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Karyn
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/24 20:19:16 (permalink)
I should say, that's 100dbA at my mixing position.  It'll obviously be louder than that closer to the stage.

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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/24 20:40:56 (permalink)
I went to an arena concert about 30 years ago and Rush was playing. I thought it was loud, too loud, and went down to see the engineers and gawk at the equipment. They had a meter on the main console and it was showing 30db. This was obviously wrong so I screamed at one of the guys and asked how loud the mix was. He reached over and picked up his smokes on the console, at which time he uncovered the meter, and the hidden 1 on the display. The meter was reading 130db.
 
Working in the steel industry for 25 years I heard explosions, train wrecks and steam whistles. Nothing was as loud as Rush. I've never been back to an arena concert since then and never will. Now if only they could do something about the THX systems at the movies.

Regards, John 
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#24
bitflipper
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/25 11:32:36 (permalink)
ampfixer
Now if only they could do something about the THX systems at the movies.



Oddly, motion picture exhibition is the only place where loudness has been standardized, and has been for decades. The K-system is based on it. There, I believe the perception of being too loud is a result of over-compression rather than absolute levels, just as it has become with television and music recordings.
 
I think I'll take along my SPL meter the next time I'm at the movies and test that theory. I just hope they don't kick me out thinking it's a recording device.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#25
ampfixer
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/25 12:10:06 (permalink)
I love going to see all the Marvel action hero movies with my kid. When I'm sitting there it's a sonic assault. The volume seems to be a big part of making the audience tense at the right times. 
 
Remember the scene in Jurassic Park when the T-Rex shows up? All you get is the low frequency thump while the camera looks at the ripples in a puddle caused by the dino footsteps. If you had opened your cup of soda in the theatre you likely would have seen the same ripples. Great blend of sound and vision to enhance the experience.

Regards, John 
 I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps.
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#26
SongCraft
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/25 16:28:39 (permalink)
Unless the band's performance is tight, the backline gear, FB and FOH is completely under expert control and the paradigm of placing FOH down at front of stage (positioned far L/R)  --- then the whole shebang will typically sound like having one's head stuck inside a wooly boom-box...

||: Boom Boom Boom :|| rpt.
 
Hey, here's a novel idea: Wireless earbuds marked with the band's name and contact (factored into the cost of admission), yes, they can keep the darn things as a memento   
 
 
#27
Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/27 04:45:53 (permalink)
 
bitflipper
So what I'm hearing is an affirmation of what I'd always assumed: it's about acoustics #1, FOH talent #2 and gear #3.
 
IOW, you can't buy your way out of the dilemma, just like you can't buy your way to quality in the studio.



#4 Your bad luck and/or knowledge of the space.
 
Even in relatively good rooms/spaces there can be spots where nothing can save the sound. Helsinki Olympic Stadium is a fully open stadium except for a roof on one side. Under that roof the sound is awfull bass mush no matter what. The higher up your seat is, the worse. Same thing in one of the acoustically best halls around here, there are a few rows where you never get good sound.
 
My great live sound quality experience was Frank Zappas concert waayyy back then. They were using Yamaha sound gear. I had not known that live sound can be so good.

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#28
bitflipper
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/27 10:24:56 (permalink)
An open stadium in Finland? Doesn't it get pretty cold there? Even here in balmy Seattle (it's about 60F/15C here ATM) our stadium has a roof, albeit a retractable one just in case the rain ever stops.
 
Before that stadium was built, we had a concrete monstrosity called the Kingdome. It had a concave roof that guaranteed the worst possible acoustics. Probably much like your Olympic Stadium except that bad sound was uniformly delivered to every seat, not just to an unfortunate few. Being the largest facility around, it was a frequent concert venue but I rarely attended performances there because everybody who played there sounded awful. I cheered the day they imploded it.
 
I've also played clubs that seemed to have been purposefully designed for maximum acoustical damage. One was a long, narrow space with a low ceiling. That would have been bad enough, but then they situated the stage midway down the long room, facing the short dimension. And they didn't stop there. They lined one whole wall - directly opposite the stage - with mirrors.  Everything that came out of the PA bounced straight back at the band 70 milliseconds later. We'd have to toe-in the PA speakers but although that helped with feedback it did nothing to clear up bass frequencies. 
 
I am generally disgusted by the lack of attention to acoustics in public spaces. I've been to restaurants where you couldn't understand the person sitting across the table. Customers don't linger in spaces like that, which means the business loses out on lucrative after-dinner cocktails. They could have made back the expense of acoustical treatments in a couple of weeks.
 
There is a museum here called the Experience Music Project, which features a performance stage. Despite being commissioned by a musician, it was designed by a world-renowned architect for maximum visual impact - and zero consideration for acoustics. It sounds dreadful. Such irony, that a place dedicated to music history, that has hosted the most amazing players of our times, sounds like a brick-lined back alley. Actually, a brick-lined alley would probably sound better. At least you'd get a little high-frequency diffusion from the bricks.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#29
bitSync
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Re: Why do PA systems sound so bad? 2015/01/27 15:21:50 (permalink)
Just another opinion for the mix, but I'm forever perplexed at how frequently I'm disappointed with the sound of a live mix.  And I've heard both good and bad in the same acoustical environment using high power, high bandwidth, high fidelity gear.  I'm personally convinced it has almost everything, or at least a great deal, to do with FOH listening and mixing talent.  Granted, some rooms are just awful, but I believe folks who mix FOH well are simply very good listeners and are musical listeners and they know how to translate what they are hearing into what they want to be hearing.  I hear those mixes and I'm just so grateful that the FOH guy is so tuned in.  My 2p.
 
Also, what you said about restaurants, there are some I won't even go into anymore because of the horrible acoustics - polished concrete floors, steel roofing, brick walls...   sorry, what was that?   Aaarggh!

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#30
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