12 Drum Mics...In Phase?

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TremoJem
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2015/01/27 09:52:51 (permalink)

12 Drum Mics...In Phase?

I never gave this any thought until reading a post that briefly mentioned it.
 
So, if I have 12 drum mics...how do I check them for phase issues.
 
I suppose I pick one and compare each against it for phasing issues.
 
I always checked my two large diaphragm, overhead mics for phasing, but never even thought to check the snare, hi-hat, toms, kicks, etc.
 
Am I on the right track?
 
Thanks

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    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: 12 Drum Mics...In Phase? 2015/01/27 10:04:28 (permalink)
    You can use the phase-reversal button to see which position sounds best (reinforces the sound when tracks are in-phase).
    You can also zoom in on the waveforms to see if they're in-phase.

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    Jim Roseberry
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    #2
    Karyn
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    Re: 12 Drum Mics...In Phase? 2015/01/27 10:23:15 (permalink)
    If you're close micing there's nothing you can do about phase on any spill.  The aim of close micing is to remove as much spill as you can, thus reducing phase problems.
     
    Phase becomes an issue where you're using two or more mics for the same sound source, ie. overheads, snare, kick. and you should really only worry about those.
     
    For overheads, distance to the sound source is the main factor.  You can mic an entire kit with just a kick mic and single overhead.  Add a second overhead to give stereo width and the phase comes into play. You solve this by keeping the overheads at the same distance from the snare (which places it in the middle) and pointing at it. Make an even triangle from the snare and overheads, so if the mics are 5 feet from the snare, place them 5 feet apart.  Phase differences from the other kit pieces now work in your favour providing most of the stereo position information.
     
    For snare and kick, you generally need the top/bottom (or front/back on a kick) mics to be out of phase with each other. BUT, it depends on the mics and their distance from the drum. If snare top is close and snare bottom is on a small stand at floor level you may NOT need to reverse the phase.  Same for front/back micing a kick drum.  As I always end up saying...  use your ears!!  Press the phase button, if it sounds worse press it again...
     
    After recording you can perfectly phase match pairs of instrument mics by sliding one of the clips until the transients line up.  But you should only do this for mics on the same kit piece, and you should move the clip for the mic with the lowest spill.

    Mekashi Futo
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    #3
    bobgassert
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    Re: 12 Drum Mics...In Phase? 2015/01/27 11:18:46 (permalink)
    Sound Radix Auto align plugin  works fast and accurate

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    #4
    denverdrummer
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    Re: 12 Drum Mics...In Phase? 2015/01/27 12:29:14 (permalink)
    Pretty much what everyone has said here, don't want to repeat stuff, but as a general rule of thumb, if your dry tracks sound thin and dead, I guarantee you've got phase issues.
     
    When setting up your overheads, take a large XLR cable or string, and have the drummer pin one end with the bass drum beater to the center of the Kick head, and take the other end and place both mics so they are equidistant from the end you are holding.  Set one mic and pinch the other end of the string/cable and adjust as needed.  Then recheck with the drummer holding the opposite end to the center of the snare.  Get it as close to equidistant as possible.  On hi-hat and ride mics, get them close to the cymbals, but angled away from the kick and snare.
     
    On the snare if you've got both mics equidistant from the center depth of the drum and facing each other, you know they will be out of phase, and flip the bottom mic.
     
    On Kick drum it's going to greatly depend on the depth of the kick, and if you choose to mic from outside or inside the drum.  On kick drum generally your out and in mics are facing the same direction, toward the beater, so it really depends on the time of the batter head to reach the resonant.  An 18" x 22" kick takes longer for the sound to reach the resonant head than a 14" x 24".
     

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    #5
    BRuys
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    Re: 12 Drum Mics...In Phase? 2015/01/27 14:30:33 (permalink)
    I would just add that gating so that only mics on struck drums are open will help reduce phasing issues.  Also, given that most of the mics are pretty close to the source, the 3 to 1 rule is reasonably easy to achieve.  Unless you have a very good acoustic space, you may also want to consider treating your ceiling, as reflections from a low ceiling are also likely to introduce phasing issues in your overheads.
    #6
    denverdrummer
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    Re: 12 Drum Mics...In Phase? 2015/01/27 15:38:36 (permalink)
    Yeah gating is a must, but I will also trim tracks on toms or instruments that aren't played consistently throughout the song.

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    #7
    gswitz
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    Re: 12 Drum Mics...In Phase? 2015/01/27 21:42:49 (permalink)
    melda mautoalign is what i use.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #8
    TremoJem
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    Re: 12 Drum Mics...In Phase? 2015/01/28 06:40:44 (permalink)
    Well, I feel better now that I have been doing most everything mentioned here. I read another post that led me to believe I had missed something and that I was getting phase issues, even though my drum tracks sound good. I started to second guess myself and my techniques.
     
    Thanks for all the great stuff and, I did not know I could check phase from comparing wave forms...I will have to look into that. I should be able to switch the phase on one of the overheads and see that wave form change...right? Also, I did not know that for snare or kicks using two mics, that using them out of phase would sound good, as I presently am not using two mics on those drums...at least not right now. And, I did not know that aligning a clip would help with phase issues...I always learn something new here.
     
    The bottom line is, if it sounds good then go with it, but I do like knowing I am on the right track, thanks.

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    Most importantly...not enough time.
     
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    #9
    Paul P
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    Re: 12 Drum Mics...In Phase? 2015/01/28 07:08:38 (permalink)
    TremoJem
    Also, I did not know that for snare or kicks using two mics, that using them out of phase would sound good, as I presently am not using two mics on those drums...at least not right now. And, I did not know that aligning a clip would help with phase issues...I always learn something new here.


    I've never mic'd a drum kit, but it seems to me that you could play with the alignment of two mics on a single drum to generate different effects.  I doubt you'd want both mics to be completely out of phase unless you're sending them to different channels.
     
    gswitz, when you use mautoalign, do you always go for perfect alignment, or do you listen to the result and vary the alignment to taste ?

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    #10
    denverdrummer
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    Re: 12 Drum Mics...In Phase? 2015/01/28 14:09:16 (permalink)
    No using two mic's out of phase will not sound good it will sound thin as the wave peaks cancel each other out.  It's not that you want this it's just a matter of physics that it will happen so you will need to flip the phase on one of the mic's. The example being a top and bottom mic's on a snare, one to capture the attack, the other to capture the snare buzz.  So one is pointing down toward the snare the other from underneath pointing up so they will be out of phase, so you need to flip the phase on the bottom mic.  This can either be done while recording or in post production.

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    #11
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