I love SONAR but not WINTEL

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jimkleban
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2015/01/27 18:50:44 (permalink)

I love SONAR but not WINTEL

With the advent of the expansion announcement of UAD plugs for MAC only and Thunderbolt... I have a dilemma..... this is probably the last straw of WINTEL machines being left behind with new technology... it isn't our bakers and others that is at fault here, rather than the arrogant company known as Microsoft.... INTEL invents Thunderbolt, APPLE OS embraces it, and MS ignores it....
 
So, without debating, I only seek a solution to migrate over to APPLE.  I am thinking that if I make this move (yes, I know the computer to run this isn't going to be cheap), I might as well move to PRO TOOLs after all these years.  I am not liking abandoning all the knowledge of using SONAR and having to relearn how to use a new DAW (and after all, I hear people complaining about PTs too).
 
So, does anyone have a solution wherein I can run SONAR on a MAC with TB2 so I can take advantage of all the TB stuff that is available (including the UAD expansion stuff, fast external HDs, etc)?
 
I am all ears and have a pretty good budget to make this happen.  I found a way to own PT Full for like $284 including a small audio interface that apparently is needed to run PTs (I forget which one I purchased)....
 
So, I will have the software, want to use the UAD Apollo as my main audio platform and would prefer to keep using SONAR vs PT... what MAC do I need, a newer PRO, an older PRO, a MAC PRO Laptop with external monitor and hard drives?
 
Please advise or help me find a path to a solution here.
 
Thanks in advance, 
jim
 

The Lamb Laid Down on MIDI
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    Cactus Music
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/27 19:02:04 (permalink)
    Why do you have to abandon a PC to get Thunderbolt? There seems to be DIY  PCIe solutions and a slow progress towards mobo manufactures buying in. My z97x came close but I guess they opted out at the last minute.  
    http://www.anandtech.com/...-is-thunderbolt-headed   read this part :
     
    In conclusion, Thunderbolt is making great progress and PC users can expect things to get better in the future. In addition to Apple, lots of other vendors are also throwing in support for Thunderbolt in their workstations and notebooks. It would have been great to have a new version of Thunderbolt with PCIe 3.0 along with the X99 launch. But, we already know it is not going to be the case till Skylake launches. That said, it will be a priority for Intel and Microsoft to get the performance and experience right with current silicon for now.
    post edited by Cactus Music - 2015/01/27 19:10:24

    Johnny V  
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    #2
    kitekrazy1
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/27 19:16:46 (permalink)
     Thunderbolt exists on some higher end PC boards.  I guess USB audio rules the market tho.
    #3
    BRuys
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/27 19:18:25 (permalink)
    Apple paid Intel a wad of cash to have exclusive rights to Thunderbolt for a couple of years, locking every other manufacturer out of the technology.
     
    You are blaming the wrong people for the slow and late uptake of Thunderbolt to the wider technology community.  If Thunderbolt had been available to the PC market from the start, it would be ubiquitous on all platforms by now.  In some ways, Apple shot themselves in the foot, as the uptake of Thunderbolt has been damaged by their aggressive business practices.  It's worth doing a bit of research before blackening the name of a company that wasn't at fault.
    #4
    Splat
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/27 19:28:00 (permalink)

    Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed.
    @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

    Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
    #5
    denverdrummer
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/27 19:28:08 (permalink)
    That statement is not accurate.  Microsoft has nothing to do with supporting Thunderbolt, that is up to the individual hardware vendors.  Most of the PC vendors have determined that Thunderbolt is not a consumer grade product, and that USB 3.0 has won out in that market.
     
    That being said Thunderbolt ports are on EVERY HP Z series workstation, and laptop.  Other vendors like ASUS also support Thunderbolt.
     
    The only vendor to my knowledge that has dropped it has been ACER.  This has nothing to do with Microsoft it has to do with the licensing fees that Intel requires for adding Thunderbolt, that are not there with USB 3.0 because, the USB standard is jointly owned by a commission with nearly all the hardware vendors.
     
    Windows supported Thunderbolt from day 1.  There were TB drivers are fully supported in Windows 7 and Windows 8.
     

    Win 10 Pro 64 bit, Dell Inspiron 15, core i7, 16GB RAM, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, Mackie MR5 Mark 1 speakers
    #6
    200bpm
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/27 19:34:29 (permalink)
    I just built a 4790K system.  TB was available on alot of boards.

    i7 4790K @ 4.8/1.325v Gigabyte Z97X-ud3h, 16GB DDR3 2300, RME UFX, Sonar 3Xe
    #7
    jimkleban
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/27 19:38:36 (permalink)
    Sorry, I probably didn't describe the issue clear enough even though some of you got the point.... I have a TB motherboard and I use it with my UAD stuff however, it really is FW over TB since UAD hasn't released WINDOWS TB drivers.  
     
    The reason they and other vendors haven't released TB drivers for their audio interfaces is that MS hasn't come up with one standard on how the OS will handle them... so until that happens, they don't want to invest in creating drivers that become a nightmare if MS changes how they are implemented within their OS.
     
    My beef is partly with the OEM audio guys, but I understand their dilemma so I have been waiting for real TB supported UAD stuff for over 2 years now (I had a working TB system for over 2 years now and no drivers).
     
    I was thinking of just getting a MAC PRO or something and running SONAR on windows if possible of just move to PT on a MAC.... looking for alternative ideas on how to run SONAR on a MAC PRO (if that is even possible)?
     
    Thanks and sorry for the confusion,
    Jim
     

    The Lamb Laid Down on MIDI
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    #8
    denverdrummer
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/27 19:38:47 (permalink)
    BRuys
    Apple paid Intel a wad of cash to have exclusive rights to Thunderbolt for a couple of years, locking every other manufacturer out of the technology.
     
    You are blaming the wrong people for the slow and late uptake of Thunderbolt to the wider technology community.  If Thunderbolt had been available to the PC market from the start, it would be ubiquitous on all platforms by now.  In some ways, Apple shot themselves in the foot, as the uptake of Thunderbolt has been damaged by their aggressive business practices.  It's worth doing a bit of research before blackening the name of a company that wasn't at fault.




    What is funny is how that backfired on them, because PC's went to USB 3.0, which for the vast majority of consumers is a better solution, and on the originial Thunderbolt macs they didn't have a USB 3.0 port.  Thunderbolt devices on average are much, much more expensive than USB 3.0, and for things like mechanical hard drives, there was minimal performance boost with Thunderbolt because the drives couldn't handle the higher data transfer speeds.
     
    I've been more upset at how the Audio world hasn't supported USB 3.0, which is a more economical solution for most people and far surpasses Fire Wire, which was the gold standard for a long time.
     

    Win 10 Pro 64 bit, Dell Inspiron 15, core i7, 16GB RAM, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, Mackie MR5 Mark 1 speakers
    #9
    denverdrummer
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/27 19:41:09 (permalink)
    jkleban
    Sorry, I probably didn't describe the issue clear enough even though some of you got the point.... I have a TB motherboard and I use it with my UAD stuff however, it really is FW over TB since UAD hasn't released WINDOWS TB drivers.  
     
    The reason they and other vendors haven't released TB drivers for their audio interfaces is that MS hasn't come up with one standard on how the OS will handle them... so until that happens, they don't want to invest in creating drivers that become a nightmare if MS changes how they are implemented within their OS.
     
    My beef is partly with the OEM audio guys, but I understand their dilemma so I have been waiting for real TB supported UAD stuff for over 2 years now (I had a working TB system for over 2 years now and no drivers).
     
    I was thinking of just getting a MAC PRO or something and running SONAR on windows if possible of just move to PT on a MAC.... looking for alternative ideas on how to run SONAR on a MAC PRO (if that is even possible)?
     
    Thanks and sorry for the confusion,
    Jim
     




     
    Buy an HP Z820, it's cheaper than a Mac Pro and performance wise it blows it out of the water.  Plus it's fully upgradable and expandable.
     
    http://www8.hp.com/us/en/campaigns/workstations/mac-to-z.html
     

    Win 10 Pro 64 bit, Dell Inspiron 15, core i7, 16GB RAM, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, Mackie MR5 Mark 1 speakers
    #10
    denverdrummer
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/27 19:48:07 (permalink)
    I'm sorry I misread your post.  If UAD hasn't released drivers for Windows.  Focusrite's new Clarette is also Mac only, so there may be something to the driver issue.  I'll have to research that.
     
    That being said you are out of luck as far as Sonar is concerned, because even running bootcamp you still need Windows drivers.

    Win 10 Pro 64 bit, Dell Inspiron 15, core i7, 16GB RAM, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, Mackie MR5 Mark 1 speakers
    #11
    jimkleban
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/27 19:56:46 (permalink)
    DD,
     
    You almost had me with the HP (got stoked when I saw the web page).... not really that much cheaper than a MAC PRO configured with the same Horse Power. But my issue is that MS has not developed low level standards for TB yet?  Is this part of the 2 year exclusivity or just slow handing?  Not sure, but UAD has announced the EXPANDED concept that only runs on TB2 on a MAC for now.... who knows how much longer it is going to be for a WIN driver for UAD.... hence my question to run SONAR on a MAC (if possible) and why I want out of the WINTEL world.
     
     

    The Lamb Laid Down on MIDI
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    #12
    BRuys
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/27 20:44:24 (permalink)
    CakeAlexS
    Thunderbolt 2 for PC:
     
    http://www.pcworld.com/article/2687971/belkins-pricey-thunderbolt-2-dock-embodies-pc-users-apathy-toward-thunderbolt.html
     


    I'm afraid that article contains very little accurate factual information.  Apple locked everyone out of ThunderBolt which hastened the adoption of USB3 (which was a bit of a mess to be quite honest).  Apple scuttled ThunderBolt for PC and the market simply moved on to the available alternative.  People made do.
     
    If the cost of TB pushed the prices up of Apples gear, people had no choice, they had to pay the premium for the product, used or not.  There were at least two generations of PCs that could not access the tech and it's created a chasm that may never be bridged.
     
    EDIT: This article is nearer the truth:
    http://news.techeye.net/business/how-apple-and-intel-killed-thunderbolt
    post edited by BRuys - 2015/01/27 20:53:21
    #13
    denverdrummer
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/27 23:02:13 (permalink)
    BRuys, it's even more complex than that.  What happened is Apple took Intel's design for Light Peak, which was an optical cable solution to extend PCIe, and Apple took it and figured out a way to convince Intel to package light peak with their crappy proprietary mini display port standard, and thus took a technology that was meant to be open to all hardware and gave us the next "firewire" headache, a proprietary implementation of Intel's design.
     
    This is why they locked out the PC market, because they were able to package it with a cheaper copper solution that worked with their stupid mini-display port so you had to pay a licensing fee to Apple to use it.
     
    Of course Apple has the music industry held by the onions so all of the vendors that were coming out with new Thunderbolt interfaces are doing them Apple exclusive because that's where the money is, for Thunderbolt.  Meanwhile 5Gbps USB 3.0 would be plenty fast and low latency enough to meet most of the demands of their customers and be able to offer it at a better price point, but they went for a niche market that is about to come tumbling down.
     

    Win 10 Pro 64 bit, Dell Inspiron 15, core i7, 16GB RAM, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, Mackie MR5 Mark 1 speakers
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    denverdrummer
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/27 23:14:57 (permalink)
    jkleban
    DD,
     
    You almost had me with the HP (got stoked when I saw the web page).... not really that much cheaper than a MAC PRO configured with the same Horse Power. But my issue is that MS has not developed low level standards for TB yet?  Is this part of the 2 year exclusivity or just slow handing?  Not sure, but UAD has announced the EXPANDED concept that only runs on TB2 on a MAC for now.... who knows how much longer it is going to be for a WIN driver for UAD.... hence my question to run SONAR on a MAC (if possible) and why I want out of the WINTEL world.
     

     
    I don't have enough information to know why they can't write ASIO drivers for Thunderbolt interfaces, and if what they told you was true about standardization.  Intel actually writes the Windows driver for the thunderbolt controller, so how the sound card manufacturer writes the ASIO driver to make .DLL calls to the controller, I don't know.
     
    I can tell you that Apple and Intel came up with a very proprietary solution that is very expensive, and that locked alot of folks out of that market.  So if you're going to go TB, you're going to have to go Mac for the time being it seems.
     

    Win 10 Pro 64 bit, Dell Inspiron 15, core i7, 16GB RAM, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, Mackie MR5 Mark 1 speakers
    #15
    200bpm
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/27 23:26:28 (permalink)
    The reality is that current usb2.0 interfaces (can) have great latency and throughput.
     
    TB is a solution for a problem that doesnt exist. 
     
     

    i7 4790K @ 4.8/1.325v Gigabyte Z97X-ud3h, 16GB DDR3 2300, RME UFX, Sonar 3Xe
    #16
    Greeny
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/28 04:27:21 (permalink)
    200bpm
    The reality is that current usb2.0 interfaces (can) have great latency and throughput.
     
    TB is a solution for a problem that doesnt exist. 
     
     


    Wrong. Every usb 2 interface (all  about 3 of them) that has good latency has it at expense of cpu usage, a pci or pci-e card with the same latency uses way less cpu.
    #17
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/28 08:20:39 (permalink)
    Thunderbolt provides access to the PCIe bus.  That's it folks!
    Nothing more... nothing less
     
    With a PC tower/rack, we've got PCIe slots... so Thunderbolt offers no performance advantage.
    With a new Mac Pro "Cylinder", there are no PCIe slots... so Thunderbolt is an absolute must.
     
    We're at an awkward "in-between" moment.
    Thunderbolt development for Mac is ahead of PC (for the moment)... out of complete necessity.
    IMO, It was a dumb move for Apple to completely eliminate PCIe slots (without more time to transition).
    Thunderbolt peripherals offer no performance advantage (compared to PCIe) and they're more expensive.
     
    Thunderbolt is the current market buzz-word... with audio-interface ads touting huge bandwidth advantage vs. USB.
    That's all fine and well... but most audio interfaces (including higher-end units from RME) are nowhere close to saturating the USB2 bus.
     
    I personally don't want to see PCIe slots completely disappear in one-fell-swoop (a la Mac).
    If you're going to eliminate a major bus protocol, it needs to be done SLOWLY (a la PCI slots).
     
    IMO, The Thunderbolt situation has been handled poorly by all involved.
    • Apple pushed the issue by eliminating PCIe slots on their new Mac Pro.
    • MicroSoft is in "wait-and-see" mode.
    • UA and MOTU are pushing new Thunderbolt audio interfaces... at a time when support for PC is lagging. Instead of offering top-notch USB2/3 performance (like RME), if you're a PC user, you take a performance hit.

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #18
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/28 08:22:53 (permalink)
    Greeny
     
    Wrong. Every usb 2 interface (all  about 3 of them) that has good latency has it at expense of cpu usage, a pci or pci-e card with the same latency uses way less cpu.



    With a current generation machine, this is absolutely false.
    CPU use is almost nil.
    I can post some video examples if you want to see side by side comparison.

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #19
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/28 08:26:21 (permalink)
    200bpm
    The reality is that current usb2.0 interfaces (can) have great latency and throughput.
     
    TB is a solution for a problem that doesnt exist. 



    +1000
     
    Thunderbolt is essentially e-PCIe
    A god-send for small form-factor machines (laptops, mini-ITX) that would otherwise not have access to the PCIe bus... but no real advantage with a tower/rack machine.
     

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #20
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/28 08:29:50 (permalink)
    denverdrummer
    I can tell you that Apple and Intel came up with a very proprietary solution that is very expensive, and that locked alot of folks out of that market.  So if you're going to go TB, you're going to have to go Mac for the time being it seems.



    IMO, That's exactly why Apple forced the Thunderbolt (Dunderbolt???) issue with their new "Cylinder" machines.  

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
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    #21
    denverdrummer
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/28 12:53:57 (permalink)
    Jim Roseberry
    Thunderbolt provides access to the PCIe bus.  That's it folks!
    Nothing more... nothing less
     
    With a PC tower/rack, we've got PCIe slots... so Thunderbolt offers no performance advantage.
    With a new Mac Pro "Cylinder", there are no PCIe slots... so Thunderbolt is an absolute must.
     
    We're at an awkward "in-between" moment.
    Thunderbolt development for Mac is ahead of PC (for the moment)... out of complete necessity.
    IMO, It was a dumb move for Apple to completely eliminate PCIe slots (without more time to transition).
    Thunderbolt peripherals offer no performance advantage (compared to PCIe) and they're more expensive.
     
    Thunderbolt is the current market buzz-word... with audio-interface ads touting huge bandwidth advantage vs. USB.
    That's all fine and well... but most audio interfaces (including higher-end units from RME) are nowhere close to saturating the USB2 bus.
     
    I personally don't want to see PCIe slots completely disappear in one-fell-swoop (a la Mac).
    If you're going to eliminate a major bus protocol, it needs to be done SLOWLY (a la PCI slots).

     
    IMO, The Thunderbolt situation has been handled poorly by all involved.
    • Apple pushed the issue by eliminating PCIe slots on their new Mac Pro.
    • MicroSoft is in "wait-and-see" mode.
    • UA and MOTU are pushing new Thunderbolt audio interfaces... at a time when support for PC is lagging. Instead of offering top-notch USB2/3 performance (like RME), if you're a PC user, you take a performance hit.




    PCIe will be around for a while and really Apple has no control over that.  The corporate enterprise market is really dependent of PCIe for other technologies like 32GB FibreChannel, 40GB Ethernet, etc. etc.  Thunderbolt 2 is at 20Gbps, but other technologies are already ahead of it speed wise, they just aren't used for audio.
     
    Agreed that Apple tried to force the issue with the Mac Trash Bin Pro, and it's rather stupid to be honest.  HP who is the biggest competitor in big companies/studios against the Mac Pro, does include TB ports, but now it's looking like the AI vendors aren't playing ball with them.
     
    In addition to UA and MOTU, FocusRite just introduced their new Clarette series interfaces (Mac Only).
     
    Seeing that Gibson/TASCAM are now full in with Sonar, a PC only solution, they have a great opportunity to follow someone like RME with a USB 3.0 solution.
     
    The one technology that is already speced for 100GBS performance that could compete with Thunderbolt and is already in the Audio space is Ethernet.  Audio over Ethernet is a well established protocol that is already out and working on 1Gbps Ethernet, and coudl easily be ported to 10Gbps Ethernet.  40G and 100G Ethernet are now too expensive for the consumer market, but 40G is really starting to ramp up in the corporate world so 10G should become cheaper.

    Win 10 Pro 64 bit, Dell Inspiron 15, core i7, 16GB RAM, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, Mackie MR5 Mark 1 speakers
    #22
    Greeny
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/29 15:16:11 (permalink)
    Jim Roseberry
    Greeny
     
    Wrong. Every usb 2 interface (all  about 3 of them) that has good latency has it at expense of cpu usage, a pci or pci-e card with the same latency uses way less cpu.



    With a current generation machine, this is absolutely false.
    CPU use is almost nil.
    I can post some video examples if you want to see side by side comparison.


    Start adding  vsti and vst and see which one brings your computer to its knees first, I'll bet you my last £££ its the usb one :)
    #23
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/29 18:14:46 (permalink)
    Greeny
    Start adding  vsti and vst and see which one brings your computer to its knees first, I'll bet you my last £££ its the usb one :)



     
    FWIW, I have a "wee bit" of experience building/using DAWs... testing them under MANY different circumstances. That's what I've been doing for a living the past ~20 years. 
     
    I've played many gigs as a keyboard player... running a RME USB audio interface at a 48-sample buffer size... with *very* substantial loads of virtual instruments (Kontakt, Omnisphere, Ivory-II, etc) hosted by both Forte' and Cantabile.  Absolutely 100% glitch-free.
     
    We're not talking USB audio interfaces from the USB1.1 period (which were poor performers).
    RME set the standard on what to expect from a USB2 audio interface.
    Low round-trip latency... and absolutely rock-solid performance.
    With a modern machine, you can run substantial loads (completely glitch-free) at very small ASIO buffer sizes.
     
    I can post video if you really need to see it...   
     

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #24
    Greeny
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/30 02:32:52 (permalink)
    Jim Roseberry
    Greeny
    Start adding  vsti and vst and see which one brings your computer to its knees first, I'll bet you my last £££ its the usb one :)



     
    FWIW, I have a "wee bit" of experience building/using DAWs... testing them under MANY different circumstances. That's what I've been doing for a living the past ~20 years. 
     
    I've played many gigs as a keyboard player... running a RME USB audio interface at a 48-sample buffer size... with *very* substantial loads of virtual instruments (Kontakt, Omnisphere, Ivory-II, etc) hosted by both Forte' and Cantabile.  Absolutely 100% glitch-free.
     
    We're not talking USB audio interfaces from the USB1.1 period (which were poor performers).
    RME set the standard on what to expect from a USB2 audio interface.
    Low round-trip latency... and absolutely rock-solid performance.
    With a modern machine, you can run substantial loads (completely glitch-free) at very small ASIO buffer sizes.
     
    I can post video if you really need to see it...   
     


    I am not saying you cant and the RME baby face is one of the "about 3" that I previously mentioned. But it cannot keep up with a PCI card so why pretend it can? also what's the rmes lowest latency? 4.4ms or so? at 48 buffer, a decent pci card can do half that at 64 buffers with less strain on the system and then you are able to run more vsti or fx etc on the same machine. I ain't here to argue just saying it as I see it. Don't need to see a video.
     
    EDIT: Also worth noting that AFAIK the babyface has the best usb latency out there, and with few exceptions getting below 6ms without crazy sample rates with a usb interface is nigh on impossible which is not a lot of fun if you are a guitarist. So my point still stands that thunderbolt is a solution for a problem that DOES exsist since there are many people who neither want or need a babyface but have no choice but to buy one if they want both usb and low latency.
    #25
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/30 06:22:52 (permalink)
    Greeny
    I am not saying you cant and the RME baby face is one of the "about 3" that I previously mentioned. But it cannot keep up with a PCI card so why pretend it can? also what's the rmes lowest latency? 4.4ms or so? at 48 buffer, a decent pci card can do half that at 64 buffers with less strain on the system and then you are able to run more vsti or fx etc on the same machine. I ain't here to argue just saying it as I see it. Don't need to see a video.
     
    EDIT: Also worth noting that AFAIK the babyface has the best usb latency out there, and with few exceptions getting below 6ms without crazy sample rates with a usb interface is nigh on impossible which is not a lot of fun if you are a guitarist. So my point still stands that thunderbolt is a solution for a problem that DOES exsist since there are many people who neither want or need a babyface but have no choice but to buy one if they want both usb and low latency.



     
    I'm not here to argue.  
    I'm here to inform.
     
    The RME Babyface (and their other USB audio interfaces) yields the following round-trip latency:
    48-sample ASIO buffer size @ 44.1k = round-trip latency of 4.9ms
    64-sample ASIO buffer size @ 44.1k = round-trip latency of 5.6ms
     
    The best PCIe audio interfaces:
    64-sample ASIO buffer size @ 44.1k = 5ms round-trip latency
     
    That means the RME USB units are 0.6ms off from the best PCIe units available.
     
     
    Most USB2 audio interfaces don't provide ASIO buffer sizes smaller than 48-samples.
     
    The best PCIe units allow you to go down to a 32-sample ASIO buffer size (some even down to a 16-sample ASIO buffer size).  Of course, this yields lower round-trip latency... but you won't be able to run heavy loads.
    Absolutely *no* PCIe audio interface yields round-trip latency of ~3ms using 64-sample ASIO buffer size @ 44.1k.
    That's impossible... here's why:
    Round-trip latency is the sum of the following:
    • ASIO input buffer
    • ASIO output buffer
    • A/D & D/A converter
    • The driver's hidden safety-buffer
     A 64-sample ASIO buffer size @ 44.1k = 1.5ms
    That means just the ASIO input and output buffers alone are 3ms.
    Add latency of the A/D D/A and the driver's hidden safety-buffer... and you're at 5ms.
     
    There is no "pretending" or "fudging" the figures here... this is real-world performance.
    If you think USB consumes significant amount of CPU (on a current generation machine), connect a USB2 or USB3 HD and run a benchmark that measures sustained thru-put and required CPU use to achieve it.
    You'll find CPU use is negligible...   
     
    Regarding Thunderbolt:
    Currently on the PC, both UA and MOTU use Thunderbolt>Firewire (not a true PCIe driver).
    Thus, you're really not reaping the "reward" of Thunderbolt.
    Thunderbolt provides access to the PCIe bus.  Nothing more... nothing less.
    Using Firewire over Thunderbolt instead of PCIe driver, you'll see the same performance as using Firewire-400 or USB2.  Absolutely the same round-trip latency... (witness the MOTU 828x)
    On the Mac, UA has proper PCIe drivers for their Apollo series.  Round-trip latency is 4.5ms with a 64-sample ASIO buffer size @ 44.1k.  
    Even with true PCIe drivers, Thunderbolt isn't going break major barriers regarding round-trip latency.
     
     
     

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #26
    Greeny
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/30 08:26:31 (permalink)
    https://www.dropbox.com/s...j19v/Capture9.PNG?dl=0
    I use that for full projects all the time, heavy load no problems. Good luck doing that on usb.
     
    RE Thunderbolt, theres a new breed coming out, focusrite and maudio both had them at NAMM, focusrite are touting 1ms latency on theirs, although that is no doubt at 192khz, which is about right and matches my pci card.
     
    And we are still only talking about 1 usb interface here that is well regarded as the best, most can make 10ms seem a struggle.
     
    It sucks that no other company but motu and RME can seem to get their act together with the drivers cos I am sure their interfaces could do ~5ms if the drivers were upto scratch.
    post edited by Greeny - 2015/01/30 08:33:08
    #27
    denverdrummer
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/30 13:09:21 (permalink)
    It's about price for performance.  Most USB interfaces are in the sub $1000 category aimed at the home studio user. The RME interfaces are much more expensive.  The Madiface XT which supports USB 3.0 can probably get even lower than 5ms, but I haven't seen specifics yet, but those start at $2500.  The TB interfaces will all be in the upper $2K or higher range.  That's fine if you're in that price range, but the fact there's not alot of better options for people in the sub $1K territory.
     
    The issue that we're bringing up is Apple trying to force it's hand with Thunderbolt.  Right now it looks like all of those TB interfaces are Mac only, and as Jim mentioned there is no real performance boost over a PCIe card, and that the Trash Can Pro was aimed at axing the card market to external A/D converters only.
     
    What's frustrating to me is that USB 3.0 has more than enough bandwith to provide 5ms or better, and it's a much cheaper and more ubiquitous solution than TB.  USB 2.0 is probably good enough, but I'd like to see more A/D vendors take a crack at USB 3.0.  Right now RME is the only one.

    Win 10 Pro 64 bit, Dell Inspiron 15, core i7, 16GB RAM, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, Mackie MR5 Mark 1 speakers
    #28
    Sycraft
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    Re: I love SONAR but not WINTEL 2015/01/30 18:32:02 (permalink)
    I just have to say that the term "Wintel" is very strange these days and when someone uses it, it makes me think they are a bit of a Mac zealot who eats up marketing silliness rather than actually evaluates things and is a bit out of date on knowledge.
     
    I can understand if you don't like Windows, fine, personal preference is personal preference. But what's with "Wintel" as opposed to what? If you buy a computer, it is x86. Macs are all Intel all the time, PCs have Intel or AMD options both which run Windows, Linux, or any other OS you like.
     
    "Wintel" was a thing from back in the PPC days when Apple was attempting to convince people that PPC chips were faster than X86 chips. Of course we all know how that went, Apple switched to Intel, and swept all that under the rug.
     
    In terms of being "left behind" no, not at all. PC system are actually more current, since they do updates more often. If your focus is on Thunderbolt then ok, but please understand that's not an Apple technology, it's an Intel technology and as others have mentioned you can get it on a PC if you want. So why don't you see many of them? Because nobody cares. It just isn't very useful for very many applications, and it is a security risk, being a direct PCIe connection in a way USB is not.
     
    If you wish to use a Mac, go right ahead, but recognize you can't use Sonar on it without booting to Windows or using an Emulator (which adds a lot of latency). Also don't lie to yourself and tell yourself that it is to get more up to date hardware, because it isn't. If it is just for TB then ok, I guess, but as others have mentioned, that's a little silly since you don't need TB. You want low latency? Get RME and be done.
    #29
    The Maillard Reaction
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    , 2015/01/31 10:58:32 (permalink)
    ,
    post edited by un - 2016/06/08 18:10:13


    #30
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