Helpful ReplyWhat changed with the MIDI engine?

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matt fresha
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2015/01/28 21:19:23 (permalink)

What changed with the MIDI engine?

The new Sonar is not behaving well with certain types of MIDI fx. The few that I've tried in the new program worked great in X3 without issue.
 
In X3 I had to adjust the TTSSEQ.ini file for the midi fx lookahead, and my humanizer (Frank's Humanizer MIDI fx) worked great on my drums. I upped "MFXLookAhead" to 100. In the new Sonar, I've had to up the same line to 960 AND ALSO up The Midi Playback buffer in the Preferences to 2500 ms (!!!!!) to stop getting dropped notes, primarily experienced with using *ANY* humanizer. The reason I'm even putting up with this is because Frank's plugin is a BIG timesaver and the same humanizer (www.midi-plugins.de) has some options to definitely help me tweak the timing that no other humanizer midifx has.
 
I talked to another member here recently and he also says that he had to up the midi playback buffer to around 1000 and "MFXLookAhead" to 960. These are unusually large numbers to use, and a big difference from what was going on in X3.
 
This doesn't just happen with Humanizer plugin from "Frank" nor just drum vstis. This happens with ANY humanizer on ANY vsti. And they worked great, without issue, in X3 once I adjusted "MFXLookAhead" to a workable number.
 
I don't understand it. Everything looks to be the same as X3 in the preferences, but there's obviously something different going on here between the last and the current versions.
#1
swamptooth
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/28 22:53:47 (permalink)
did you lower the mfxlookahead value at all?
I would ideally like several of these baked into a prochannel for midi tracks (after all the prochannel tab shows up in the inspector when you click a midi track).  I think that would be a nice integration.  You could have basic things like transpose and filter, even delay, velocity and length compression -- even the chord analyzer with a nice big display of the current chord.  

 
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#2
brundlefly
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/29 00:14:53 (permalink)
My favorite humanizer continues to work perfectly in Platinum:
 

 

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#3
gustabo
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/29 06:12:59 (permalink)
brundlefly
My favorite humanizer continues to work perfectly in Platinum:
 
 

Wow! What a helpful response to the OP!



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#4
JonD
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/29 11:32:32 (permalink)
Vern C
.... Frank's plugin is a BIG timesaver and the same humanizer (www.midi-plugins.de) has some options to definitely help me tweak the timing that no other humanizer midifx has.....


+1
 
I haven't upgraded yet, and as a user of Frank's humanizer, this gives me pause.  
 
Clearly something has changed with the midi FX implementation, but until a changelog is released for Sonar 2015 we won't know exactly what.
 

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#5
gustabo
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/29 12:30:19 (permalink)
I've always had an issue with Frank's humanizing mfx, when I froze drums, the first drum hit would always get dropped because the humanizing mfx would move it a few ticks in front of the beat and it would not sound. My workaround would be to create a non-sounding note, something like C10 one beat or so before the first drum hit. It worked.

Then I found out about mfxlookahead variable.

I've been doing more experimenting into mfxlookahead and how it relates to humanizing mfx and this is what I got.
Mfxlookahead's default value is 960*4 (ticks, not ms) which is 4 beats in 960 tick resolution.

All it appears to do is store mfx changes in a buffer for playback, so if you're playing back a midi track with mfx and change a value, that's how long you'll have to wait before you hear a change. I've decided to live with 480, which in my case, is one beat. No big deal.

The midi buffers setting appears to be what affects the humanizing mfx.

I tried different settings, increasing by 500 each time and 1500 would work on some projects and not on others. Since this is in ms, the tempo of the project had a direct effect. The lowest setting that works on all projects (for me) appears to be 2500 ms.

This does not appear to have impacted midi playback if I loop a section either. Everything is playing as expected and freezing as expected at this setting for me.

Just passing it on and would love to hear of other people's experiences with this and what works.


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#6
brundlefly
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/29 12:36:19 (permalink)
gustabo
 
Wow! What a helpful response to the OP!





Seven years of helpful posts, and I can't get away with one moment of smarta$$? Sorry. Let me try again:
 
OP wrote: "This happens with ANY humanizer on ANY vsti."
 
It seems unlikely to me that there's something specific and common to all humanizers that would cause a problem. So I'm wondering if OP has tested any MFX bundled with SONAR or 3rd-party freebies that might reproduce this?
 
Dave

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#7
gustabo
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/29 12:54:33 (permalink)
Dave,
I assume that the hand pictured isn't yours. If it is, nice hand...
You didn't specify the name of the mfx humanizer pictured that does work so it wasn't very helpful!

Seriously, he didn't mention in this thread but he did mention in another thread that he was getting the same issue with Cakewalk's humanize mfx and Frank's humanizer mfx.


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#8
matt fresha
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/29 13:11:34 (permalink)
brundleflySo I'm wondering if OP has tested any MFX bundled with SONAR or 3rd-party freebies that might reproduce this?

 
gustabohe did mention in another thread that he was getting the same issue with Cakewalk's humanize mfx and Frank's humanizer mfx.


Yup, I mentioned in another thread on the same subject that I got the same issue with Cakewalk's included Humanizing effect. I'm going to try other humanizers, and other types of effects, soon.
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jbraner
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/29 13:21:05 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Mesh 2015/01/29 13:27:20
Seven years of helpful posts, and I can't get away with one moment of smarta$$?

 
Hey Dave, I say go for it. The odd smarta$$ comment never hurt anyone - and you actually deserve a few more

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joden
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/29 13:22:11 (permalink)
yes go for it.
 
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slartabartfast
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/29 13:34:19 (permalink)
Humanizer on Platinum?
 
.
#12
AT
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/29 14:51:19 (permalink)
Start, that is a dehumanizer.  Or pre-humanizer. 
 
And what we need is more smart-ass replies.  Certainly beats the dumb ones.
 
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brundlefly
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/29 15:27:26 (permalink)
AT
Or pre-humanizer. 
 





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brundlefly
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/29 15:37:02 (permalink)
Vern C
Yup, I mentioned in another thread on the same subject that I got the same issue with Cakewalk's included Humanizing effect.



Okay. I'll try to check it out later. I've only ever really used the MIDI Filter FX to filter real-time input which was always a little troublesome - mostly causing randomly delayed notes - but it didn't affect playback. There's also a long-standing issue with MIDI buffering when looping with MFX in a project, but that doesn't manifest as dropped notes.

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gustabo
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/29 18:02:56 (permalink)
Spoke to Cakewalk tech support tonight about another issue but brought up the humanizing mfx while I was on the phone with them.
mfxlookahead only has to do with how soon a change that you make in an mfx, while playing back, kicks in.
The humanizing mfx, and the dropped lead note that I was experiencing when freezing has to with the midi buffers settings.
I double checked mine and it is set at 2000ms, not 2500ms as I stated previously.


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brundlefly
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/29 20:29:30 (permalink)
Vern C
I got the same issue with Cakewalk's included Humanizing effect.



Are you talking about the Random functions of the Velocity and/or Quantize MFX? I wasn't aware Cakewalk/SONAR ever bundled a "Humanizing" MFX, and I'm not seeing one now.
 
 

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#17
matt fresha
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/29 22:30:19 (permalink)
brundlefly
Vern C
I got the same issue with Cakewalk's included Humanizing effect.



Are you talking about the Random functions of the Velocity and/or Quantize MFX? I wasn't aware Cakewalk/SONAR ever bundled a "Humanizing" MFX, and I'm not seeing one now.
 
 




Yes, that's what I meant by that. It's the Quantize MFX. It's the randomization function.
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brundlefly
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/29 22:58:48 (permalink)
FWIW, I played around using both MFX together in both X3 and Platinum with my default MIDI Prepare Using buffer of 500ms, and no MFXLookAhead setting added, and could not detect a difference or a problem. 

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#19
matt fresha
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/31 00:05:47 (permalink)
In a very interesting turn of events, I *THINK* I've narrowed my particular problem down to drum maps. I was getting dropped notes when using a humanizer no matter what buffer setting I used.....until I thought about unrouting the midi drum track from the drum map. I've tested this with a library I'm using in Kontakt 5 and so far after several playthroughs, I have not gotten a single dropped note. When I re-enabled the drum map, I started getting dropped notes again.
 
I'm going to test this some more this weekend with Addictive Drums and Superior Drummer, and if I have time Steven Slate Drums 4.
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brundlefly
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/31 03:16:38 (permalink)
Is the drum map the difference between your X3 and Platinum setups or is it not affecting X3? I added a drum map to my test project, and still didn't encounter any problems.
 
Any chance your drum map is routing some notes to an unused note number in the kit? Is it always the same note number/kit piece/articulation getting "dropped"?

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matt fresha
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/01/31 11:36:23 (permalink)
brundlefly
Is the drum map the difference between your X3 and Platinum setups or is it not affecting X3? I added a drum map to my test project, and still didn't encounter any problems.
 
Any chance your drum map is routing some notes to an unused note number in the kit? Is it always the same note number/kit piece/articulation getting "dropped"?




The drum maps are the same between X3 and Platinum. It seems to be a combo of using a humanizer AND a drum map. However, once I disabled the drum map with the humanizer still enabled, the dropped notes stopped happening and everything played fine, even through several playthroughs. This leads me to believe it's an issue with drum maps and MAYBE not necessarily with the humanizer. It wasn't specific notes that were dropped, it was random with each playthrough.
 
What's interesting is that no matter what midi buffer I was using, I still got a dropped note. However, the number of dropped notes seemed to have "threshold". It happened a lot at lower buffers (~ 250-500). The more I raised the buffer, the less the dropped notes were happening. However, at 2500 and ANY higher number, I was still getting a FEW dropped notes, but not as bad as the lower values.
 
This was until I decided to disable the drum map late last night and see what happened. Low and behold, the dropped notes stopped occurring, even with the humanizer still enabled. I think I'm close to getting to the bottom of this.
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MagicMike
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/02/02 16:11:19 (permalink)
I'm getting a lot more dropped notes on an Addictive Drums midi track than I did in X3e - prepare buffer doesn't have any effect. Perhaps this is because  of opening an X3e project in Platinum? 

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brundlefly
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/02/02 16:31:23 (permalink)
I think it must have something to do with all this bleeding edge hardware and operating systems everyone is running.   My hairy old quad core with Win7 just keeps plugging along. Anybody have a sample project to post using only bundled FX and synths?
 
 

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matt fresha
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/02/03 08:55:53 (permalink)
MagicMike
I'm getting a lot more dropped notes on an Addictive Drums midi track than I did in X3e - prepare buffer doesn't have any effect. Perhaps this is because  of opening an X3e project in Platinum? 


If you're using a drum map, try disabling it and just routing the midi track directly back to AD. It worked for me, I suggested it in someone's post and it worked for him too.
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MagicMike
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/02/03 11:32:40 (permalink)
Hi Vern, 
yes I'm using a DrumMap - I'll try what you suggest. Maybe re-create the DrumMap in Platinum?

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MagicMike
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Re: What changed with the MIDI engine? 2015/02/04 04:51:09 (permalink)
I found a fix! I went back to X3E - no dropped notes.
 
I'll continue to work on projects that were created in X3E and when ready will bounce my midi drum tracks to audio. I'll then open the project in Platinum to gain the benefit of mix recall etc.

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