cpkoch
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Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
I recently replaced a TASCM US 122 with a Steinberg UR22 Audio Interface. With the US 122 I seldom (if ever) noted a sharp nasty clipping sound. Others who had listened to my stuff mentioned clipping but I chalked it up to their wanting something closer to perfection in the production. However now, using the Steinberg unit, the clipping is, to me, very pronounced and irritating. Is this to be expected?
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AT
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/03 21:32:06
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Not unless you are pushing the unit. Try turning down the input of the unit when recording. If it does it on playback of commercial stuff, then something is wrong w/ the output.
With low-cost interfaces it is too easy to clip. Digital doesn't have the noise floor of analog, there is no reason to try to capture at high volume. -12 dB is fine, even peaking to -6.
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cclarry
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/03 21:46:17
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AT is correct. Most hardware units are designed to do their best work
on an input signal that is at -18 db +/- RMS. This is what is referred to as the "Sweetspot"
for the hardware. So, as AT stated, -6 db PEAK is a good place to be...it leaves you "headroom".
Audio Interfaces have varying types of Preamps, and,
consequently, their gain and headroom vary. But as long is you're not
"Peaking in the red" then you should be in good shape on recording.
Once the signal is recorded, how (and what) you use to process the signal, and your
gain staging, both pre and post processing, can impact "clipping" if you are over driving the signal on
output. That's why it's very important to use your meters, and even
a 3rd party metering plugin if you are not confident in the meters in
your DAW or plugins.
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mettelus
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/03 21:50:54
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+1 to AT... it is easy to clip some interfaces if trying to run them too hot. When tracking it is best to insert an audio track and leave all settings on that track at unity. Arm the track and adjust gain on the interface to peak barely onto the orange (in SONAR) at most (never red). If there is a performance part that is noticeably louder, that is a good time to test it (loud vocal passage or full guitar chords). As long as an interface has good signal-to-noise ratio, there is a lot of leeway to bring that signal up and eliminate noise once recorded, but if a track is clipped during recording (i.e. SONAR records the raw audio with a flat top) there is very little to recover this situation other than to re-record it. Do the wave forms of the tracks you are referring to have flat tops and bottoms? This is a key indicator of clipping regardless of what the interface is telling you.
post edited by mettelus - 2015/02/03 22:37:57
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swamptooth
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/03 22:08:46
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Right to all of the above, and you have to remember as well that clipping does not happen in Sonar, it happens in the interface. There is no such thing as clipping in software, it's all math. Clipping happens at the analog level.
With the steiny interface make sure +48v is off and guitars or other instruments run through the line inputs in the back of the unit.
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noynekker
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/03 22:26:50
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swamptooth
Right to all of the above, and you have to remember as well that clipping does not happen in Sonar, it happens in the interface. There is no such thing as clipping in software, it's all math. Clipping happens at the analog level.
With the steiny interface make sure +48v is off and guitars or other instruments run through the line inputs in the back of the unit.
So what's the purpose of all the red clipping lights, do we pay no attention to them ? Does it only matter when recording from the interface ? ie. on mixdown . . . if the track is clipping, but the bus is not clipping, will there be no distortion at the interface ? I always thought that gain staging throughout the signal chain had some importance.
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swamptooth
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/03 22:54:51
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noynekker
So what's the purpose of all the red clipping lights, do we pay no attention to them ?
Does it only matter when recording from the interface ?
ie. on mixdown . . . if the track is clipping, but the bus is not clipping, will there be no distortion at the interface ?
I always thought that gain staging throughout the signal chain had some importance.
On the interface, yes - in the daw, it depends on what you want to do. Dan Worrall has a short video illustrating this in a pretty extreme way here. I think a lot of it has to do with familiarity, and setting up guideposts. Most daws as a rule, including sonar, don't define 0db according to the aes-17 standard which gives you a bit more leeway on output, but not input.
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JonD
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/03 23:10:28
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A quick google-search brings up more than a few reports of the UR22 being too hot (clipping). You may want to research this and determine under what circumstances and/or if it's fixable.
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noynekker
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/03 23:16:58
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Thanks swamptooth, an interesting video . . .
- no distortion in the DAW because it uses floating point maths
- the signal only distorted when converted to integer format to send to the audio interface
- not possible to clip a modern DAW's mix bus internally . . . consider it to have infinite headroom.
Lots to think about here, seems I really need to pay closer attention to my soundcard mixer's I/O settings.
As to the OP's original question, is it possible that the quality of the newer soundcards analog - - -> digital conversion is of a lower grade, causing the more noticeable distortion. What else could it be, unless the I/O settings have been changed in the new set-up ?
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JonD
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/03 23:20:34
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noynekker, to answer your question, see my post above.
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swamptooth
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/03 23:24:43
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I think that's just it -- lots to wrap your head around. this one video was a real revelation to me. I just searched and found out the 22 has no rear inputs - that's the 44. my bad.  the ur22 does require an unbalanced cable on input 2 for direct instrument recording.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/04 06:43:20
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noynekker
Thanks swamptooth, an interesting video . . .
- no distortion in the DAW because it uses floating point maths
- the signal only distorted when converted to integer format to send to the audio interface
- not possible to clip a modern DAW's mix bus internally . . . consider it to have infinite headroom.
Lots to think about here, seems I really need to pay closer attention to my soundcard mixer's I/O settings.
As to the OP's original question, is it possible that the quality of the newer soundcards analog - - -> digital conversion is of a lower grade, causing the more noticeable distortion. What else could it be, unless the I/O settings have been changed in the new set-up ?
But it IS possible to clip any plugins you've got if the input goes over a certain threshold. This threshold will vary from plug to plug, so keep an eye on whatever metering provided by the plug(s) you're using.
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John
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/04 07:44:48
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Its a very good idea to keep all tracks and buses out of clipping. As Bristol Jonesey points out not all plugins can handle a hot signal.
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js516
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/04 08:53:37
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You also want to make sure that your final mixdown isn't too hot. The issue that the people listening to your works hear may be due to clipping in the D/A or preamp of thier playback device caused by not leaving enough headroom in the final mix.
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bitflipper
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/04 08:59:21
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To answer the original question, yes - different interfaces can sound different when clipped.
Some interfaces are more prone to analog clipping than others, so the same signal level to one might cause more or less clipping than another. Furthermore, some interfaces are well-protected against analog clipping but end up passing the overly-hot signal on to the ADC and get digital foldback instead, which is much more noticeable than analog clipping.
You just have to learn your particular interface, discover its limitations and work within them.
None of this has anything to do with clipping within the DAW. If you experience distortion in a plugin, your audio interface won't make it better or worse. Beware final outputs exceeding 0dB, though, as that will translate into digital overs when converted to integer data, and that really does sound bad regardless of the interface.
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cpkoch
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/04 13:33:34
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bitflipper
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to.
I've asked before; but, what is the significance of this "Sin-X-over-X" expression?
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rabeach
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/04 14:39:07
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Any physical waveform may be represented over the interval -∞ < t < ∞ by that equation. It has been known to mathematicians since 1915 and was brought to engineer's attention in 1949 by Shannon. Also known as the cardinal series. It is the basis of the Sampling Theorem.
post edited by rabeach - 2015/02/04 14:58:10
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cpkoch
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/04 15:05:02
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Well ... thank you! I've long ago forgotten what I learned about Shannon, Nyquist and sampling. Thanks again.
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cpkoch
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/04 15:14:51
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mettelus
Do the wave forms of the tracks you are referring to have flat tops and bottoms? This is a key indicator of clipping regardless of what the interface is telling you. Maybe what I am hearing is not "clipping". The waveforms are xxx flattened as one would expect with clipping. Here's a link to a sample that has the "noise" I hear. The sample is marked in two places BUZZ1 and BUZZ2. It is clipping afterall I just experimented a little by turning the MIC input gain down and up. The noise, I found, is most surely due to clipping. The waveforms in the sample are indeed flattened.
post edited by cpkoch - 2015/02/04 16:49:41
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swamptooth
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/04 16:04:35
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I'd take a look but I don't have the plugs that you're using. is it happening at the project level or could you post just an audio track that has the noise??
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cpkoch
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/04 16:28:12
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swamptooth
I'd take a look but I don't have the plugs that you're using. is it happening at the project level or could you post just an audio track that has the noise??
I removed all Plugs, FX, and etc while making the file smaller.
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swamptooth
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/04 16:46:00
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That's weird... definitely not clipping. Sounds almost like a sample rate mismatch.
You're using the asio drivers for the ur22 right - not mme or another mode?
That was recorded direct into sonar through the interface right?
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cpkoch
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/04 17:00:02
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swamptooth
That's weird... definitely not clipping. Sounds almost like a sample rate mismatch.
You're using the asio drivers for the ur22 right - not mme or another mode?
That was recorded direct into sonar through the interface right?
I am not at all any good at understanding all I know about this stuff. I just concluded that it was clipping  I've added a new file to show what I did which was basically re-recording the sample SAMPLE2 I am using ASIO driver.
post edited by cpkoch - 2015/02/04 17:19:26
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swamptooth
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/04 17:53:23
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When you open the ur22 settings via “Control Panel” → “Hardware and Sound” or “Sounds, Speech, and Audio Devices” → “Yamaha Steinberg USB Driver” is the sample rate the same as in sonar?
The other thing is there might be a limiter on the input of the ur22 - i'm not sure - and if you're clipping it will not show it in sonar - you can test this by reducing the input gain on the ur22 and recording. If you're still getting artifacts, that is not the problem.
The only other thing I can recommend are to make sure the mic cables you're using are balanced cables, hi-z is off.
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cpkoch
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Re: Should Clipping Be More Pronounced With Different Audio Interface
2015/02/04 20:11:50
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swamptooth
When you open the ur22 settings via “Control Panel” → “Hardware and Sound” or “Sounds, Speech, and Audio Devices” → “Yamaha Steinberg USB Driver” is the sample rate the same as in sonar?
The other thing is there might be a limiter on the input of the ur22 - i'm not sure - and if you're clipping it will not show it in sonar - you can test this by reducing the input gain on the ur22 and recording. If you're still getting artifacts, that is not the problem.
The only other thing I can recommend are to make sure the mic cables you're using are balanced cables, hi-z is off. Thanks for your guidance. I very much appreciate it. As to the sample rate I see nothing about it described as I go into the Control Panel. The Sample buffer is set to 512 if that is of any significance. The MIC Input uses a Balanced cable. Given that I had no problems when using the Tascam US 122 I simply wasn't sensitive enough to the issue. Most definitely when I reduce the MIC input gain the problem disappears. It is something that I will just have to watch more carefully. Thanks again.
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