[Solved/Workaround] Mix Recall behaving odd with Kontakt and Octa-Capture

I believe it has been acknowledged that there are issues with the mix recall function..  I'm forgetting now, as I had some early problems too.  Seems like VSTi were involved or busses... can't remember now. Some tracks muted...others didn't...etc...   But I "believe" Noel commented that they are aware of this now, and I'd bet this will be addressed in the next upcoming update.  I'm also under the impression, that these updates can contain potentially smaller lists of items/fixes, and that's part of the reason of the new restructuring of Sonar/Command Ctr, ....but these updates now can ALSO be more frequent.   IOW, less items addressed = more frequent bug fixes.
 
As far as BETA testing, I can only imagine a zillion different configurations of setups, projects, features, ..that covering them all is basically an impossible task.  I'd expect a solution soon.

The types of mixes I wanted to recall, contained some bugs in it, so I haven't used it anymore at this point.  I might wait for the update, before committing serious time to hardcore testing. 

Again, I was finding some channels were muting, others not...  and they WERE VSTi...  but specifics escape my brain now.

FreeFlyBertl
I insert an FX chain into the pro channel ... save ... change ... recall ... boom ... crash ... reproducible 3 times in a row (does not crash when not using FX chains) ...

You might want to give us specific steps to reproduce from a new project. At the moment I cannot repro. I didn't try the other problem again might be an idea to give specific steps to repro from a new project if you can...

Thanks,,

CakeAlexS

FreeFlyBertl
I insert an FX chain into the pro channel ... save ... change ... recall ... boom ... crash ... reproducible 3 times in a row (does not crash when not using FX chains) ...

You might want to give us specific steps to reproduce from a new project. At the moment I cannot repro. I didn't try the other problem again might be an idea to give specific steps to repro from a new project if you can...

Hi Alex, 
Above are the "exact steps" to reproduce it in my project ... crashes anytime w/ any FX chain ... nothing funny with that project (no crashes or odd behaviour observed while working extensively on it in X3e) ...
 
If you feel like reproducing it in a new project I recommend to insert at least 3 instances of Kontakt (20+ tracks out of K5), 7+ other soft synths, freeze all synth tracks (without freezing track FX), add some 30+ audio tracks, fit each channel with 1 - 3 WAVES plugs, some FF plugs, Sonar stock plugs, no (!!!) 32 bit plugs, though ... use about 12-15 buses ... all at 96 kHz (don't think that it should matter, though) ... maybe set it up in X3e and then open in Platinum (don't know if that makes a difference) ...
 
Sorry that I don't feel like trying to reproduce this from a new project - it's a paid upgrade afterall and I'm almost certain it won't crash a (smaller) new project ...
 
Anyway, I uploaded my dump files, so that may help.
 
 

I tried reproducing this again this morning on my system to see if I can gain more insight on what is causing the problem:

 1) It definitely must have something to with the track being a frozen synth track (or more specifically a frozen Kontakt track), with "Track FX" excluded from the "Freeze Options".

 2) If I try it on an audio track with the same plug-ins (Guitar Rig, WAVES NLS) and Anderton Fuzztastic FX chain, it works ... I can at least switch between the mixes approx. 10 times BUT eventually I get a crash in Kontakt which is very strange because Kontakt is virtually disabled (i.e. ALL Kontakt instances and tracks are frozen and hence disabled) ... yet something must happen due to the repeated loading of the Kontakt settings (as I always get the Kontakt loading progress bar when recalling a mix) ...

 3) Now, if I try the same stuff as in step 2) with the frozen Kontakt track (instead of an audio track) I get a Sonar crash right away i.e. switching mixes for the first time ... I've uploaded the dump file, maybe Cake can see something in there ...

 4) Then I spent about an hour trying to replicate this is a small new project (1 frozen Kontant instance, 1 additional audio track) and as expected I could not get it to crash (using same plugins, switching mixes dozens of times) ... I even tried setting up the project in X3 and then test in Platinum, still no crash - so I cannot reproduce it on a small project, either ...

I looked at both your dump files. The crash is not in the mix recall operation. In fact Mix recall successfully completed according to the stack. The actual crash occurred in your Roland VS-700 driver. If you look at the stack analysis below it shows the crash site as rdas1089.dll which is the roland driver. Why the roland driver would crash in this operation eludes me since all mix recall is doing at the end is prerolling the system and starting audio again. So according to the stack evidence so far mix recall is only exposing a problem rather than being the problem itself. I don't think it has anything to do with large projects. We have run mix recall on lots of complex large projects and its been fine.
 
I will try and follow up on your suggestion to see if if frozen tracks have anything to do with it. But I highly doubt it. Please do an experiment. Disable the roland driver in preferences and use your soundcard or some other driver to test. Then load your project and do the same mix recall operation. Report back if it still crashes.
 
=====
 
 
Loading Dump File [F:\MiniDumpDebug\Platinum\build 254\Gruam_61_02072015_230152.dmp]
Comment: 'SONAR Platinum Created Dump
--------------------------------
User: Win7
Project File: E:\Cakewalk Projects\Active Projects\Ertlberg-Duo\07 - I geh in die Gruam\Gruam_61.cwp
IsPluginCrash: 0
Total Phys Mem 33484660 KB
Avail Phys Mem 24454892 KB
--------------------------------
Aud Settings:
--------------------------------
AlwaysOpenAllDevices 0
DynamicArm 0
DynArmOnlyInputs 1
MultiProc 1
MinimizeDriverStateChanges 1
MMCSS 1
WaveRT 0
CloseOnLostFocus 0
Default Bit Depth 24
Default Rec Bit Depth 24
Default Render Depth 32
Default Sample Rate 96000
Playback Buffer Size 10
Bounce Buffer Size 10
Core 2
Play Timing Master VS-700 OUT 1-2
Record Timing Master VS-700 IN 1-2
'
User Mini Dump File: Only registers, stack and portions of memory are available

************* Symbol Path validation summary **************
Response Time (ms) Location
OK F:\MiniDumpDebug\Platinum\build 254
Symbol search path is: F:\MiniDumpDebug\Platinum\build 254
Executable search path is:
Windows 7 Version 7601 (Service Pack 1) MP (12 procs) Free x64
Product: WinNt, suite: SingleUserTS
Machine Name:
Debug session time: Sat Feb 7 17:01:52.000 2015 (UTC - 5:00)
System Uptime: not available
Process Uptime: 0 days 0:13:24.000
................................................................
................................................................
................................................................
..................................
Loading unloaded module list
................................................................
This dump file has an exception of interest stored in it.
The stored exception information can be accessed via .ecxr.
(1164.cec): Access violation - code c0000005 (first/second chance not available)
*** WARNING: Unable to verify timestamp for ntdll.dll
*** ERROR: Module load completed but symbols could not be loaded for ntdll.dll
ntdll+0x51f8a:
00000000`76e21f8a c3 ret
0:000> !analyze -v
FAULTING_IP:
rdas1089+81d0
00000000`033d81d0 488911 mov qword ptr [rcx],rdx
EXCEPTION_RECORD: ffffffffffffffff -- (.exr 0xffffffffffffffff)
ExceptionAddress: 00000000033d81d0 (rdas1089+0x00000000000081d0)
ExceptionCode: c0000005 (Access violation)
ExceptionFlags: 00000000
NumberParameters: 2
Parameter[0]: 0000000000000001
Parameter[1]: 00000000535d0300
Attempt to write to address 00000000535d0300
CONTEXT: 0000000000000000 -- (.cxr 0x0;r)
rax=0000000000000329 rbx=00000000000004d0 rcx=000000000012ada0
rdx=00000000028b6470 rsi=0000000000000077 rdi=0000000003173128
rip=0000000076e21f8a rsp=000000000012a7e8 rbp=000000000012b800
r8=000000000000001c r9=0000000000000003 r10=0000000000000000
r11=000000000012ada0 r12=0000000003173068 r13=0000000002fa0080
r14=00000000800704c7 r15=0000000000100000
iopl=0 nv up ei pl nz na po nc
cs=0033 ss=002b ds=002b es=002b fs=0053 gs=002b efl=00000206
ntdll+0x51f8a:
00000000`76e21f8a c3 ret
DEFAULT_BUCKET_ID: WRONG_SYMBOLS
PROCESS_NAME: SONARPLT.exe
ADDITIONAL_DEBUG_TEXT:
You can run '.symfix; .reload' to try to fix the symbol path and load symbols.
FAULTING_MODULE: 0000000076dd0000 ntdll
DEBUG_FLR_IMAGE_TIMESTAMP: 4ea7cbde
ERROR_CODE: (NTSTATUS) 0xc0000005 - The instruction at 0x%08lx referenced memory at 0x%08lx. The memory could not be %s.
EXCEPTION_CODE: (NTSTATUS) 0xc0000005 - The instruction at 0x%08lx referenced memory at 0x%08lx. The memory could not be %s.
EXCEPTION_PARAMETER1: 0000000000000001
EXCEPTION_PARAMETER2: 00000000535d0300
WRITE_ADDRESS: 00000000535d0300
FOLLOWUP_IP:
rdas1089+81d0
00000000`033d81d0 488911 mov qword ptr [rcx],rdx
APP: sonarplt.exe
ANALYSIS_VERSION: 6.3.9600.17298 (debuggers(dbg).141024-1500) amd64fre
PRIMARY_PROBLEM_CLASS: WRONG_SYMBOLS
BUGCHECK_STR: APPLICATION_FAULT_WRONG_SYMBOLS
LAST_CONTROL_TRANSFER: from 00000000033d1664 to 00000000033d81d0
STACK_TEXT:
00000000`0012ea78 00000000`033d1664 : 00000000`535d0300 00000001`402c9737 00000000`00000006 00000000`0209e201 : rdas1089+0x81d0
00000000`0012ea80 00000000`535d0300 : 00000001`402c9737 00000000`00000006 00000000`0209e201 00000000`00000000 : rdas1089+0x1664
00000000`0012ea88 00000001`402c9737 : 00000000`00000006 00000000`0209e201 00000000`00000000 00000000`033d5b63 : 0x535d0300
00000000`0012ea90 00000001`402c78c8 : 00000000`0209e2f0 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 00000000`0a047950 : SONARPLT!CRenderEngine::PreRoll+0x8c7
00000000`0012eb90 00000001`40bd1362 : 00000000`0209e2f0 00000000`0012edd8 00000000`0012ed40 00000000`00491cd5 : SONARPLT!CRenderEngine::SetState+0xf8
00000000`0012ebd0 00000001`40bd1d09 : 00000000`00000000 00000001`83915cc0 00000000`0a047950 00000001`83915cc0 : SONARPLT!CGappingPauser::ResumeNow+0x112
00000000`0012ec00 00000001`40b65efc : 00000000`0012edd8 00000000`0000005a 00000001`83915cc0 00000000`0012ec70 : SONARPLT!CGappingPauser::~CGappingPauser+0x79
00000000`0012ec40 00000001`407d1e3e : 00000000`0012eee0 00000000`0012eee0 00000000`0012f0a0 00000000`0012f008 : SONARPLT!CMixRecallMgr::ApplyMixScene+0x57c
00000000`0012ee50 00000001`407d2908 : 00000000`76cf716a 00000000`0012f1f0 00000001`412e3f48 00000000`0a064740 : SONARPLT!CCtrlBarMixRecallModule::handleMixRecallDropDown+0x29e
00000000`0012f0f0 00000001`4042d580 : 00000000`09bd2060 00000000`2fd37fb8 00000000`9808f398 00000000`9808f368 : SONARPLT!CCtrlBarMixRecallModule::DoDropDownMenu+0x6e8
00000000`0012f260 00000001`407d4a16 : 00000000`09bd2060 00000000`00000040 00000000`00cc0020 00000000`76ce7f12 : SONARPLT!CNWDropDownCtrl::HandleLMouseUP+0x100
00000000`0012f2b0 000007fe`e9d28e6a : 00000040`0000007e 00000001`407d49e0 00000000`00090b86 00000000`00090b86 : SONARPLT!CCtrlBarModule::OnLButtonUp+0x36
00000000`0012f2e0 000007fe`e9d28a68 : 00000000`09bd2060 00000000`00000000 00000000`0040007e 00000000`0a134c90 : mfc120u+0x268e6a
00000000`0012f460 000007fe`e9d26422 : 00000000`00000000 00000000`002746c0 00000000`00000000 00000000`09bd2060 : mfc120u+0x268a68
00000000`0012f4a0 000007fe`e9d267a4 : 00000000`00000202 00000000`000b0c42 00000000`0012f5b8 00000000`00000000 : mfc120u+0x266422
00000000`0012f550 000007fe`e9be0a75 : 00000000`0040007e 00000000`000b0c42 00000000`00000202 ffffffff`ffed075f : mfc120u+0x2667a4
00000000`0012f590 00000000`76ce9bd1 : 000007fe`e9be0a24 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000001 000007fe`fb25f450 : mfc120u+0x120a75
00000000`0012f5e0 000007fe`e9be0a23 : 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000001 000007fe`fb25f450 00000000`76ee5430 : user32+0x19bd1
00000000`0012f5e8 00000000`00000000 : 00000000`00000001 000007fe`fb25f450 00000000`76ee5430 00000000`00000000 : mfc120u+0x120a23

STACK_COMMAND: ~0s; .ecxr ; kb
SYMBOL_STACK_INDEX: 0
SYMBOL_NAME: rdas1089+81d0
FOLLOWUP_NAME: MachineOwner
MODULE_NAME: rdas1089
IMAGE_NAME: rdas1089.dll
BUCKET_ID: WRONG_SYMBOLS
FAILURE_BUCKET_ID: WRONG_SYMBOLS_c0000005_rdas1089.dll!Unknown
ANALYSIS_SOURCE: UM
FAILURE_ID_HASH_STRING: um:wrong_symbols_c0000005_rdas1089.dll!unknown
FAILURE_ID_HASH: {1c03b2b0-ae23-b7fb-00d2-84f06c814f25}
Followup: MachineOwner
---------
0:000> kp 100
Child-SP RetAddr Call Site
00000000`0012a7e8 00000000`00000000 ntdll+0x51f8a

Hi again,
 
I did a lot more testing meanwhile and I think I now have a good overview/understanding of the situation ... I reckon by just picking up that particular X3e project and continue in Platinum while throwing all new features into the game, I have run into an extremely specific situation without realizing it ;-) yeah, I guess I must have done something bad in a previous life ...
 
Anyway, here's the situation:

• If I turn off the Roland interfaces and use e.g. the LINE 6 POD X3 (bass FX from live rack) in ASIO mode all works with perfect stability recalling mixes 20+ times.
• If I run the ROLAND interfaces (VS-700 and Octa-Capture in VS EXPAND mode), I get a crash  - usually at the 2nd mix recall (which is funny BTW) ...
• If I turn off just the Octa-Capture and run only the VS-700, it seems (almost) perfectly stable: I had one issue where Sonar failed on me, but that we should ignore. It happened after at least 10 or more mix recalls, reporting FabFilter as the source (??) but that was not reproducable as the second intensive test with VS-700 was perfectly stable ...

However, since I don't want to ditch the Octa-Capture as I need it for direct monitor mixes and additional inputs, I did further tests - now again using both Roland interfaces (VS-700 and Octa-Capture in VS EXPAND mode):

• If I only recall tracks, which do not include frozen Kontakt tracks => perfect stability
• If I delete the frozen Kontakt instances and just keep the frozen audio tracks => perfect stability recalling the entire mix
• If I copy bounced Kontakt audio to audio tracks and archive frozen Kontakt tracks => perfect stability recalling the entire mix
• If I just keep Kontakt as is, it usually crashes after it's done loading the Mix Recall (progress bar is to the right and the Kontakt loader progress bars has popped up and disappeared) ... hence, if I have archived the Kontakt tracks, the Kontakt loader never pops up and Sonar never crashes ... so by re-loading the Kontakt stuff something is shuffled around that the audio driver doesn't like when it's started up again (even though it doesn't need any of that information really)

So it's clear now that I have run into something very specific and it must be the combination of Kontakt and Octa-Capture causing these troubles ... I have had similar issues before where these 2 together compromised stability, but never when Kontakt was frozen und virtually deactivated ...
 
From all I've seen I think Cakewalk can pretty much ignore this issue (maybe let support know that this is a potentially unstable combination).
 
Now that I better understand Mix Recall and all its options I find it extremely cool and very useful - and I'm looking forward to exporting several mixes in batch mode :-) :-) :-)
 
However, I think I will make some feature requests to extend its functionality with the following options:

• Advanced options: Please add "Synths" or "Frozen Synth" or both options ... I understand you need to recall synths for a consistent mix, but if you could uncheck it, it would save a lot of time for those who have the synths still in the final mix (just in case it needs tweaking or re-rendering) ...
• Advanced options: Split "Track FX" into "FX bin" and "ProChannel" ... this is crucial for resetting the mix because while it makes sense to reset all faders, panning, EQs, compression, etc. I would definitely want to keep my FX bin (e.g. Guitar Rig for guitar sounds used during tracking, WAVES NLS in every channel)
• Advance options: Add "ProChannel modules" to keep it from resetting the number, type and sequence of ProChannel modules assigned to each channel (very time-consuming to add back in)

Thanks, Noel and Cakewalk for listening to us on this forum!We appreciate your time and effort :-)
 

Noel...just having you respond like you do, is worth the $499 easily.  You're really an asset. 

Noel, thanks again - I really appreciate our input ... that kind of support I haven't seen in any other software company :-)
 
<< will change title of thread once more to put a "solved" there >>