Helpful ReplySo..i have been experimenting with LCR

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dubdisciple
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2015/02/17 22:49:44 (permalink)

So..i have been experimenting with LCR

Sounds great except for my chorus when playing in mono.  I panned one vocal hard L and one hard R with a very low pitched down version center.  In mono the L adn R all but disappear.  Dumb question coming....How does one gain the benefits of going the LCR route and not have things like this occur?
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sharke
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Re: So..i have been experimenting with LCR 2015/02/18 01:46:15 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby dubdisciple 2015/02/18 15:53:40
Well if you pan two identical tracks hard L and R then they're going to collapse to mono, or if they're out of phase they're going to kill each other to some extent. But this happens if you pan them +50/-50 as well. To me LCR is about clearing up space in the center for your important elements like kick, snare, bass and vocal. I have been trying it recently and it works very well to add clarity and width to your mix, but you really have to think about what you're doing to avoid that hard panning sounding too "extreme." I do things like pan an instrument to one side and pan it's mono reverb to the other. 
 
I guess if you're panning a vocal part hard left and right then you have to take mono compatibility into account the same as you would if you were soft panning them.  If you're going for vocal width in the chorus then there are a number of ways you can achieve that through specialist stereo widening plugins and other "DIY" techniques like the Haas effect, stereo flange or chorus, subtle pitch shifting etc. Or double tracking.  Recently I've been experimenting with sending a little of the chorus vocal to a stereo bus with the Waves Metaflanger on it. It really opens up the sound and provides contrast. 
 
With LCR mixing I find it helps to use all mono instruments and maybe one or two stereo parts at most. 

James
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batsbrew
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Re: So..i have been experimenting with LCR 2015/02/18 10:17:47 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby dubdisciple 2015/02/18 15:53:53
true stereo elements, should be handled as stereo,
with the left right pans all the way, 
and the track set for stereo.
 
with true LCR, you'll simply take a stereo track, split it into two mono tracks, and hard pan them.
 

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dubdisciple
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Re: So..i have been experimenting with LCR 2015/02/18 15:53:53 (permalink)
I was going for an effect where  i had two very distinct versions of chorus coming from each side but i better rethink that. Thanks
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dubdisciple
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Re: So..i have been experimenting with LCR 2015/03/02 00:57:04 (permalink)
I fixed my issue.  Turns out it just took changing my pan law settings
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batsbrew
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Re: So..i have been experimenting with LCR 2015/03/02 10:32:16 (permalink)
ah, 
pan laws....
 
i just brought that up recently,
if you do a search,
it was fairly recent

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sharke
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Re: So..i have been experimenting with LCR 2015/03/02 23:15:21 (permalink)
Every time I do a complete reinstall of Sonar (which I end up doing every few months due to one reason or another), I totally and utterly forget about my pan law setting and it gets me every time 

James
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dubdisciple
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Re: So..i have been experimenting with LCR 2015/03/03 00:29:16 (permalink)
batsbrew
ah, 
pan laws....
 
i just brought that up recently,
if you do a search,
it was fairly recent


Thanks.  I admit, it is a topic that sometimes confuses me and i have to end up going through it again and again.  The other thing that made an even bigger difference was using a stereo reverb on the send.  when i removed that everything sounded much better in mono.
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TremoJem
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Re: So..i have been experimenting with LCR 2015/03/11 12:36:00 (permalink)
So what is the default panning law for someone that is not doing anything weird or fancy...just straight forward material.
 
For now...I like my stuff to be panned like the the Extreme LP titled "Waiting For The Punchline". I liken it to throw back rock. Panned somewhat aggressively...to my ears anyway.
 
So here is my question...I run a mic cable into an input on my MOTU. I bring that input up in my track and assign it either L or R...NOT Stereo.
 
I do this for all 14-16 tracks.
 
Full on drum kit.
 
Bass.
 
And several guitar tracks.
 
I pan everything to sound as natural as possible...as if you were in front of a stage watching the band and hearing the Bass player louder on the left than the right, because that is where his/her amp is and vise/versa for guitar.
 
I may pan the kit a little more just to give it some breadth and liveliness, then anything like leads or vocals are in the center...oh of course kick, snare and hi-hat are very close to center.
 
What am I doing wrong if anything...I mean, for example, are the tracks actually stereo...I thought they were mono and that was how I should record them.
 
Please let me know, thanks.

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sharke
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Re: So..i have been experimenting with LCR 2015/03/11 15:17:50 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby dubdisciple 2015/04/08 16:09:21
Just remember that the sonics associated with hearing a live band on stage are different than the sonics associated with hearing a band come out of two speakers. So while it's tempting to try to recreate the naturally "panning" of a live band, that might not work in a mix. Bass frequencies generally sound better in the center, although I've certainly heard examples of panned bass that worked.

Also consider that the perceived "panning" of live musicians changes depending on where you're standing. The further back you are, the more that stereo image approaches mono. So in terms of creating a "natural" sounding stereo image in a mix, you have to ask yourself what that natural stereo image really is.

Personally I would lean toward making your mix sound the best it can from two speakers, rather than trying to recreate a live sounding image. And that may lead you to try things that aren't "natural" compared to a live band, like hard panning your hi hats or toms, for example.

James
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TremoJem
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Re: So..i have been experimenting with LCR 2015/03/11 15:22:13 (permalink)
I guess my interpretation of the album I spoke to earlier is wrong.
 
But, that is what I am going for for this project right now, anyway.
 
TNX

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John T
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Re: So..i have been experimenting with LCR 2015/03/27 21:40:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby dubdisciple 2015/04/08 16:09:16
I think LCR is better as a starting point and guiding principle than as a dogma. If the verse works hard-panned, but the chorus doesn't, then move some stuff when the chorus hits. And if the LCR mix doesn't work at all in mono, and you care about mono, don't LCR.
 
I pan fairly decisively. But I think there are maybe five positions rather than three. And for the most part, I don't care about mono. It's 2015.

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John T
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Re: So..i have been experimenting with LCR 2015/03/27 21:40:25 (permalink)
I think LCR is better as a starting point and guiding principle than as a dogma. If the verse works hard-panned, but the chorus doesn't, then move some stuff when the chorus hits. And if the LCR mix doesn't work at all in mono, and you care about mono, don't LCR.
 
I pan fairly decisively. But I think there are maybe five positions rather than three. And for the most part, I don't care about mono. It's 2015.

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Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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