Method for measuring RMS? Analyzing master wave forms.

Author
mikebeam
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 288
  • Joined: 2014/01/03 11:57:45
  • Status: offline
2015/02/28 11:35:36 (permalink)

Method for measuring RMS? Analyzing master wave forms.

Is there any way to measure RMS (and A-weighted RMS) in Sonar - aside from estimating from the meter.  Like an actual number?
#1

15 Replies Related Threads

    mikedocy
    Max Output Level: -67 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1157
    • Joined: 2007/05/09 23:00:37
    • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re: Method for measuring RMS? Analyzing master wave forms. 2015/02/28 20:34:34 (permalink)
    Not that I know of in Sonar.
     
    You can run "Tools/statistics" in Sony Sound Forge and get the L/R RMS numbers on the entire wave file or just a high-lighted selection of it.
     
    If you have Sound Forge it can be used within Sonar by selecting it from Sonar's "Utilities" menu.
    You would be able to get an RMS number on any track in Sonar.
    That would be the RMS value of the raw waveform without the track plugins contribution. 
     
    post edited by mikedocy - 2015/02/28 22:44:14
    #2
    Jeff Evans
    Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5139
    • Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
    • Location: Ballarat, Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re: Method for measuring RMS? Analyzing master wave forms. 2015/03/01 05:41:05 (permalink)
    There are several ways to do it for sure and using an editor program such as Adobe Audition etc will often include the ability to give you all sorts of readings including rms values.
     
    Another way to do it is to calibrate your system to an rms ref level eg -14 db FS.  Insert a VU meter plugin and get it calibrated to show 0 db VU when a -14 dB FS signal is present.
     
    Then play your master into the VU and see what is going on.  If it just hits 0 dB VU then you know your master is mastered to around -14 db FS.  If it falls short and only reaches -2 db VU then you know it is mastered to -16 dB FS rms level or if it hits + 3 db VU then you know it is mastered to -11 dB FS etc rms level.
     
    Another option is to just insert a VU meter plugin  (some are very cheap eg Klanghelm meter and others are free too) and keep adjusting the ref level so the needle is just hitting 0 db VU most of the time.  Then read off the ref level.  That is what your master has been mastered to rms wise.  It might be high eg -10 etc..
     
    Sonar's rms readings are 3 dB lower than what they should be.  A -14 dB FS rms signal shows up at -17 on the Sonar rms meter.  Be aware of that.  It is not accurate.  (Well actually it is accurate but it does not follow the standard of the rms level being the very tops of the sinewave, it is showing rms as being 3 dB down on peak which is technically correct but not so for this type of measurement though.)
     
     
     
     

    Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
     
    Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
    #3
    mikebeam
    Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 288
    • Joined: 2014/01/03 11:57:45
    • Status: offline
    Re: Method for measuring RMS? Analyzing master wave forms. 2015/03/01 09:46:32 (permalink)
    Thanks for the suggestions.  Soundforge is little pricey for me.  Right now I have Audacity and can use Wave Stats to measure - the problem is that I have to export every time I want a measure.  That's kind of time consuming.  I'm a learner too so sometimes I just want to see how a minor change will affect things and I'm losing whole afternoons exporting files then making a minor switch and doing it again - what a drag.
     
    Jeff, are any of the things you mentioned free?  I think a VU meter that's free would be great!  How do I calibrate my system?  I think one of the methods you mentioned might work for me.
     
    Thanks!
    #4
    Paul P
    Max Output Level: -48.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2685
    • Joined: 2012/12/08 17:15:47
    • Location: Montreal
    • Status: offline
    Re: Method for measuring RMS? Analyzing master wave forms. 2015/03/01 10:45:02 (permalink)
    mikebeam
    Jeff, are any of the things you mentioned free?  I think a VU meter that's free would be great!



    The Klanghelm meters are just a bit over 10$.
     
     

    Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
    #5
    BenMMusTech
    Max Output Level: -49 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2606
    • Joined: 2011/05/23 16:59:57
    • Location: Warragul, Victoria-Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re: Method for measuring RMS? Analyzing master wave forms. 2015/03/02 00:47:33 (permalink)
    mikedocy
    Not that I know of in Sonar.
     
    You can run "Tools/statistics" in Sony Sound Forge and get the L/R RMS numbers on the entire wave file or just a high-lighted selection of it.
     
    If you have Sound Forge it can be used within Sonar by selecting it from Sonar's "Utilities" menu.
    You would be able to get an RMS number on any track in Sonar.
    That would be the RMS value of the raw waveform without the track plugins contribution. 
     


    Interesting, to the original poster you can get a cut-down version of SoundForge for 100 bucks or so...or even as part of their consumer Video editing package.  I've just had a look at the statistics at my last track...seems I should be making mine louder...gosh I'm only averaging -18db but it's better to be quieter than too loud.
     
    Ben

    Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
    http://1331.space/
    https://thedigitalartist.bandcamp.com/
    http://soundcloud.com/aaudiomystiks
    #6
    BenMMusTech
    Max Output Level: -49 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2606
    • Joined: 2011/05/23 16:59:57
    • Location: Warragul, Victoria-Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re: Method for measuring RMS? Analyzing master wave forms. 2015/03/02 00:53:34 (permalink)
    Jeff Evans
    There are several ways to do it for sure and using an editor program such as Adobe Audition etc will often include the ability to give you all sorts of readings including rms values.
     
    Another way to do it is to calibrate your system to an rms ref level eg -14 db FS.  Insert a VU meter plugin and get it calibrated to show 0 db VU when a -14 dB FS signal is present.
     
    Then play your master into the VU and see what is going on.  If it just hits 0 dB VU then you know your master is mastered to around -14 db FS.  If it falls short and only reaches -2 db VU then you know it is mastered to -16 dB FS rms level or if it hits + 3 db VU then you know it is mastered to -11 dB FS etc rms level.
     
    Another option is to just insert a VU meter plugin  (some are very cheap eg Klanghelm meter and others are free too) and keep adjusting the ref level so the needle is just hitting 0 db VU most of the time.  Then read off the ref level.  That is what your master has been mastered to rms wise.  It might be high eg -10 etc..
     
    Sonar's rms readings are 3 dB lower than what they should be.  A -14 dB FS rms signal shows up at -17 on the Sonar rms meter.  Be aware of that.  It is not accurate.  (Well actually it is accurate but it does not follow the standard of the rms level being the very tops of the sinewave, it is showing rms as being 3 dB down on peak which is technically correct but not so for this type of measurement though.)
     
     
     
     


    Hi Jeff, now that I've discovered soundforges little tool, and I've found out I've been short changing my masters...although no one seems to be complaining about my mixes or masters anymore...what do you think...should I try and add 3 or more db to my masters.
    I think I have been overmastering again...I've worked out that by proper gain staging or structure in the mix means less mastering...Virtually I just turn everything up and add a little sparkle...although I'm still having to carve the mids.  I would probably have to do even less if I just turned everything up another 3db.
    Anyway your opinion would be nice...yes I said it would be nice.
     
    Ben

    Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
    http://1331.space/
    https://thedigitalartist.bandcamp.com/
    http://soundcloud.com/aaudiomystiks
    #7
    Jeff Evans
    Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5139
    • Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
    • Location: Ballarat, Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re: Method for measuring RMS? Analyzing master wave forms. 2015/03/02 00:56:16 (permalink)
    Ben what sort of rms levels are you getting for your mixes now then. They sound pretty good to me but can you pin it down to a figure.

    Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
     
    Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
    #8
    BenMMusTech
    Max Output Level: -49 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2606
    • Joined: 2011/05/23 16:59:57
    • Location: Warragul, Victoria-Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re: Method for measuring RMS? Analyzing master wave forms. 2015/03/02 06:28:56 (permalink)
    Hi Jeff...sorry went off to dinner...I had a look at my last piece...which has timing issues...I'm fixing them and that was -18db, one of the "classical" pieces was only -23db...I think I've figured the formula...maybe lol!!
     
    Ben

    Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
    http://1331.space/
    https://thedigitalartist.bandcamp.com/
    http://soundcloud.com/aaudiomystiks
    #9
    mikedocy
    Max Output Level: -67 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1157
    • Joined: 2007/05/09 23:00:37
    • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re: Method for measuring RMS? Analyzing master wave forms. 2015/03/02 10:42:29 (permalink)
    Put Voxengo Span on your master buss or any track and get real-time RMS readout.
    It's free:
    http://www.voxengo.com/product/span/
    #10
    BenMMusTech
    Max Output Level: -49 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2606
    • Joined: 2011/05/23 16:59:57
    • Location: Warragul, Victoria-Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re: Method for measuring RMS? Analyzing master wave forms. 2015/03/03 01:03:35 (permalink)
    mikedocy
    Put Voxengo Span on your master buss or any track and get real-time RMS readout.
    It's free:
    http://www.voxengo.com/product/span/


    I actually already do...hence my work sounds alright...I've just worked how bad my ADHD is or arrogance...take your pick. Mix of,last track if you can call it that was not great because I finished composing the thing then actually didn't mix it properly timing errors and over compression. Shakes head. 
     
    Ben

    Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
    http://1331.space/
    https://thedigitalartist.bandcamp.com/
    http://soundcloud.com/aaudiomystiks
    #11
    mikebeam
    Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 288
    • Joined: 2014/01/03 11:57:45
    • Status: offline
    Re: Method for measuring RMS? Analyzing master wave forms. 2015/03/03 18:36:57 (permalink)
    Mikedocy - I just found SPAN and was coming back here to report out on it - works for my purposes.  Thanks!
     
    For what it's worth - I think -18db is fine for a classical song.  Especially if it's a mellower song.  I've looked around a lot at the RMS levels of recordings and many Jazz and Classical songs are around that range.  Pop gets up to -14db.  Bad Pop gets a little bit higher.  Metal might reach a little bit higher.  But to me that all sounds way too loud anyway.
     
    I make a lot of Funk stuff and I try to hang out around -16db.  That's fine for me.  
     
    But I think it all boils down to what sounds good to you.
    #12
    BretB
    Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 508
    • Joined: 2010/01/17 18:24:00
    • Location: Oklahoma
    • Status: offline
    Re: Method for measuring RMS? Analyzing master wave forms. 2015/03/12 18:13:32 (permalink)
    You might look at this.  Its cool and free.
     
    http://www.orban.com/meter/

    Sonar Platinum - A&H ZED R16 - KRK VXT4's - Yamaha DTXpress IV & Gretsch Catalina Maple kits
     
    "Music is what feelings sound like"
    https://soundcloud.com/bret575b
    #13
    Paul P
    Max Output Level: -48.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2685
    • Joined: 2012/12/08 17:15:47
    • Location: Montreal
    • Status: offline
    Re: Method for measuring RMS? Analyzing master wave forms. 2015/03/17 23:13:31 (permalink)
    BretB
    You might look at this.  Its cool and free.
    http://www.orban.com/meter/

     
    Thanks for this.
     
    Here's a free vst plugin Klangfreund LUFS Meter that I just stumbled across.

    Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
    #14
    Jeff Evans
    Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5139
    • Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
    • Location: Ballarat, Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re: Method for measuring RMS? Analyzing master wave forms. 2015/03/18 02:13:35 (permalink)
    I use and like the Orban loudness meter. But it works a bit differently to a standard plugin concept.  You have to route audio to it.  It can be tricky but my PatchMix software for the EMU audio interface I use allows some pretty fancy routing so I can do it.  You may have issues getting it to work.
     
    The Klangfreund meter is good and works just like a normal plugin and can be inserted anywhere.
     
     

    Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
     
    Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
    #15
    TremoJem
    Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 479
    • Joined: 2008/04/10 09:42:25
    • Location: NY
    • Status: offline
    Re: Method for measuring RMS? Analyzing master wave forms. 2015/03/18 06:57:47 (permalink)
    So if I understand correctly (not likely) my mastered material, if at a -1.0 dB (SSL) is really too loud?
     
     

    Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser
     
    Most importantly...not enough time.
     
    www.studiocat.com
    jim@studiocat.com
     
    #16
    Jump to:
    © 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1