How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach?

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Jeff Evans
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2015/03/02 22:54:30 (permalink)
Aww you guys make me blush! Thanks anyway. Yeah I agree with jb101 in that I do the mono mix outside my DAW and mixer for that matter. That is what is cool about it. Even if I am playing a CD I Only have to turn up that mono send and its all there in mono.
 
I remember reading some Beatles stuff and sometimes they had issues with having done say 2 or three overdubs from Geroge's or John's guitars and when they lined them all up in mono suddenly they could not hear the parts too well.
 
So that forced them to re do the overdubs and do things like switch guitars, pickups, pedals, EQ's and amps. Then they could hear the parts much more clearly.  And of course they were basically in mono so they had to deal with that clarity issue all the time.  Mono sort of forced them to make the parts clear and more distinct from each other.
 
I grew up too in a mono world for a little while.  All the records we had were mono up to about 1968 here in Australia.  I supposed I just got used to it and thought it was the norm.  I remember the record salesman saying do you want this in mono or stereo (after 1968 that is)  I had to convince my father to buy a new record player that was stereo!!  I knew it was going to be good.  Well we have not really looked back have we.
 
But as we know they did some weird things mix wise when stereo first came out.  But there were still some records that used the stereo spread rather nicely too.
 
On the single mono speaker and down low in volume if I find things are starting to sound cluttered as well it usually means some parts have to go!!! Not just sound alteration now but maybe just too muich information in there and not enough of that elusive black backdrop that I have mentioned before.  The black backdrop should still be present in a great mix.  It is in leaps and bounds with Kraftwerk and Steely Dan and even Tangerine Dream despite the complexity there.  TD albums sound great in mono too.  (Edgar Froese would have been dealing with mono synth sources for many many years!!)
 
 

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#31
Anderton
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2015/03/02 23:28:03 (permalink)
dubdisciple
Reading tips from Jeff has really helped my mixing a lot.



Jeff has an open mind, which is one very important element that makes his advice valuable. I guess good ears probably helps too 

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#32
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2015/03/03 00:32:43 (permalink)
I don't know if it's just me, but sometimes I hear a classic track in a deli or coffee shop pumping out of a mono speaker and I think wow, I love this song, I must add it to one of my Spotify playlists when I get home. But when I listen to it back home in glorious stereo, I don't like it so much. There's something about the power of a well mixed song coming out of one speaker in mono that's always impressed me. 

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#33
TomHelvey
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2015/03/03 01:40:05 (permalink)
Most of my mixes end up being backing tracks for live shows so they have to sound great in mono. I normally only fiddle with stereo placement when I'm producing a demo from one of our songs. I record soft synths in stereo so I don't loose the width for demos but everything else gets a mono channel.
When I'm mixing a demo, I hit the mono button on my monitor station occasionally to make sure I'm not screwing up the mix but I keep the DAW in stereo.
 

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#34
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2015/03/03 03:20:55 (permalink)
Beepster
Only a suggestion from a novice mix engineer...
 
I do this on the Master bus by clicking the interleave button. This brings the entire mix down to mono so you can hear how it sounds and fix any problems.
 
 




Wow, Thanks Beepster. I have been using sonar since 8.5 without knowing this feature. 

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#35
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2015/03/03 11:53:38 (permalink)
dubdisciple
I throw Boz Digital Labs' Panipulator on my master bus. It's free and hardly uses any cpu.
 
http://www.bozdigitallabs.com/product/panipulator/


Thanks! Just been playing around with this - it seems to work well. As Jeff points out it is a little disconcerting to select Mono and to have the resultant audio come from the centre of my stereo field between my two Nearfields. But it seems to accurately present the mono information (either left or right, or both).  This may seem sacrilegious given the minor kerfuffle that arose from the inclusion of "Bark of the Dog" (which I love by the way) as a freebie in the ProChannel for the Braintree update - but I would love to see the Panipulator as a ProChannel Plug just for the convenience of it.
Anyway I am sure there will be arguments about why a mono speaker is the only way to go but this fits my needs perfectly. Thanks again! Great find and practically zero CPU hit.

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#36
scook
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2015/03/03 12:10:19 (permalink)
Brando
 I would love to see the Panipulator as a ProChannel Plug just for the convenience of it.
 

Boz has already announced the PC version is coming.
#37
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2015/03/03 12:26:54 (permalink)
musichoo
Beepster
Only a suggestion from a novice mix engineer...
 
I do this on the Master bus by clicking the interleave button. This brings the entire mix down to mono so you can hear how it sounds and fix any problems.
 
 




Wow, Thanks Beepster. I have been using sonar since 8.5 without knowing this feature. 




It is quite helpful. I think interleave buttons on tracks/busses has been pretty common in most DAWs but admittedly I've only played with a few. As has been noted it is probably better to do this kind of thing even further down the signal chain (like at the hardware level) but doing it on the master is very convenient and I think probably gives a good indication of whether there are problems.
 
I'm kind of liking jb's method of doing things in mono until the very end and then dealing with pan but because I tend to spend so much time working on things from the first riff to the final master I do like to get an idea of how the final result is going to work. I think maybe I'll keep doing things the way I do BUT be sure to hit that Master interleave button a lot more often as I go. It really does seem to help with choosing proper mix levels. If I'm having a hard time deciding if something is too loud or quite I'll hit that button, adjust some levels then switch back to stereo and it generally sounds right. I have no idea how or why that type of thing works but it does.
 
And on another note... I gotta give props to Jeff Evans as well. He knows his shiz and I always try to pay attention when he posts. Heckuva a nice guy too. Cheers, Jeff.
#38
Brando
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2015/03/03 12:47:42 (permalink)
scook
Brando
 I would love to see the Panipulator as a ProChannel Plug just for the convenience of it.
 

Boz has already announced the PC version is coming.


Geez I feel like a Set-up Man. Had no idea. That's great news as this will be really useful I think.
Thanks Scook - again!

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#39
Mistergreen
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2015/03/03 12:59:51 (permalink)
I've always used the interleave button on the master bus. Would it be better to listen to the mono signal on a single speaker? If so, what's the best way? Physically, I mean. My interface doesn't have a summing option.
post edited by Mistergreen - 2015/03/03 14:07:12

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#40
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2015/03/03 13:56:41 (permalink)
I think Jeff's post above outlines the BEST way to monitor in mono - (see above). For sheer convenience I think the panipulator plugin (soon to be a prochannel module apparently) is my personal preference because it gives you easy options to hear the left channel only, the right channel only, or a mono Mix of both channels at three different volume settings. Free and low cpu hit as well.

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#41
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2015/03/03 14:20:27 (permalink)
Brando
I think Jeff's post above outlines the BEST way to monitor in mono - (see above). For sheer convenience I think the panipulator plugin (soon to be a prochannel module apparently) is my personal preference because it gives you easy options to hear the left channel only, the right channel only, or a mono Mix of both channels at three different volume settings. Free and low cpu hit as well.

You can do all that and more with Channel Tools

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#42
dubdisciple
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2015/03/03 15:36:38 (permalink)
I am sure the channel tools will accomplish the same thing, but panipulator nails it in a way that is more obvious and intuitive to me. I am sure summing to a single mono speaker is the idea way, but for now panipulator serves me .
#43
Jeff Evans
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2015/03/03 15:48:07 (permalink)
There is an easy work around in terms of summing to mono.  A simple but effective one is to make a stereo to mono adaptor built right into a stereo headphone plug.  Rather than short out L and R to form a mono mix hot outputs  (I would not do that) you could connect two very small 100 ohm resistors to the ring and tip of a headphone plug and then connect the other two ends together to form the summing mix.  Connect the hot heat of a single core shielded cable to the junction of these resistors and the earth to the sleeve of course.  You will need to insulate the junction of the 100 ohm resistors that is in order to prevent that from shorting to ground.  With care you can fit all that inside a decent sized stereo 6.5 mm headphone plug.  (Use small 1/4 watt resistors helps)
 
The 100 ohm resistors prevent the headphone driver amp output impedance  (which will be very low BTW)  of one channel from putting too much load on the other etc.. It just isolates them nicely.  The headphone driver amp is seeing a 100 ohm load on both channels which it would be very happy with.
 
There is always some spare headphone output somewhere either on an interface or digital mixer in my case that is not often used which is perfect for generating a nice mono signal.  There will usually be a level control associated with it too.  There is enough gain available there to drive any amp well.
 
Any small single channel amp or one channel of any discarded stereo amp will suffice too feeding the small mono speaker.  (Some older HI FI amps had a mono switch on them and if that is the case you won’t need the summing resistors. Do it in the amp instead)  Actually I have got three small mono speakers connected to an old hi fi amp.  One is in front of me and the other two are set up in front of my keyboards on both sides.  That way when I am facing either keyboard setup (away from my normal stereo pair)  I have got a small mono speaker giving me a mono mix so I can just hear the main mix better everywhere I turn.  I have got ON/OFF switches on all three mono speakers so I can turn them off at will.  Most of the time they are off but when I want to hear the one directly in front I just flick the switch and it comes on and then I just turn the main stereo pair down.  Having switches on the other two for me allows me to shut them off when I am checking mono mixes directly in front.
 
I love the sound of everything coming out of just one small speaker.  I like to sit (quite close) and look directly in front of it too so both ears are the same distance to it.  It does not have to be very loud either.  When the sound is coming from a single point source like that there is no mono confusion.  It IS better than two speakers in mono.
 
I like the fact the sound gets louder when things are panned centre and a little softer when panned to extremes.  It is possible even after setting up a full stereo mix to check the mono speaker again and the sounds that are hard panned might be a little soft in the mono speaker.  Then you can just tweak them slightly in the stereo mix.  They won't change there much but will in the mono speaker.  It is possible to satisfy the stereo mix on your main pair and the small mono speaker at the same time with a little tweaking.
 
I find after spending time fiddling and getting a great stereo mix sounding great on a mono speaker when I turn that all up loud on the main speakers the mix is usually close to perfect and amazing.
 
I agree with sharke too in that starting with a complete mono mix and just getting it sounding great in the mono speaker is a great place to start before panning and applying stereo effects etc...

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#44
Beepster
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2015/03/03 15:53:33 (permalink)
sooo.... can I not set up a bus in Sonar that sends a mono output of my mix to a signal monitor via the main outs of my interface (like the left main)?
 
Considering it's not centered physically in my studio that ain't the old Aurotone set up but it should still be mono... yes?
 
And all this talk about Aurotone monitoring has got me wondering... in my VRM Box software there is an Aurotone. Obviously the VRM stuff is set up to be monitored via headphones. What would be the best way to mimic the centered, single monitor, mono output of that emu via headphones?
 
That may not make any sense because I'm a dumbass but if I could mimic having that little speaker centered in front of my face except using the emu/headphones that would be cool.
 
I actually recognized that speaker from control rooms I had been in before and various videos I've seen but did not realize the implications of it until this thread... so I'd like to learn.
 
#45
Beepster
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2015/03/03 15:54:25 (permalink)
And Jeff probably answered my question as I typed that. Will read.
 
You rock, Jeff.
 
#46
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2015/03/03 16:52:30 (permalink)
Beepster
And all this talk about Aurotone monitoring has got me wondering... in my VRM Box software there is an Aurotone. Obviously the VRM stuff is set up to be monitored via headphones. What would be the best way to mimic the centered, single monitor, mono output of that emu via headphones?
 



Don't know VRM but used other digital emulators of rooms and speakers (e.g. ARC) and don't do it anymore ... nothing beats a real speaker like an Auratone (or one of the decent remakes) and training your ear to reference recordings ...
 
Personally I would find getting mono inside a headphone a very unusual/weird experience ... this would distract me ...
 
Being able to monitor in mono is a fine thing - but to me it has to be a push button solution. Flip a switch and it's on or off. No changes in the DAW required. Passive monitor controllers are not that expensive IMO and do other nice things for you as well (like never having to change your DAW master fader to control your speaker levels)

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#47
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2015/03/03 17:49:39 (permalink)
FreeFlyBertl
Beepster
And all this talk about Aurotone monitoring has got me wondering... in my VRM Box software there is an Aurotone. Obviously the VRM stuff is set up to be monitored via headphones. What would be the best way to mimic the centered, single monitor, mono output of that emu via headphones?
 



Don't know VRM but used other digital emulators of rooms and speakers (e.g. ARC) and don't do it anymore ... nothing beats a real speaker like an Auratone (or one of the decent remakes) and training your ear to reference recordings ...
 
Personally I would find getting mono inside a headphone a very unusual/weird experience ... this would distract me ...
 
Being able to monitor in mono is a fine thing - but to me it has to be a push button solution. Flip a switch and it's on or off. No changes in the DAW required. Passive monitor controllers are not that expensive IMO and do other nice things for you as well (like never having to change your DAW master fader to control your speaker levels)




I think I could, technically wire up this scheme with my mixer (which has a dedicated main mono out) if I had an extra monitor I could put smack dab in front of me leaving my Mackies on the left and right. I only have two 1/4" outs on my Scarlett so those could feed Channels 9/10 (it's a sixteen channel designed for throughput with the last 8 being the ones traditionally used for routing back into but any channels would work really). Then I guess I could do some kind of Aux routing to the mono or something (there may be a button to send to the mono out but I can't remember). It might require using knobs instead of buttons but still it would work.
 
With my other interface which has 8 in and out then I could totally route out to stereo and mono easily but I don't have that hooked up because it's old and PCI.
 
The REAL problem is the noise factor. Crappy soundproofing, bad room, etc so everything is done through headphones right now (thus the VRM Box). It sucks.
#48
joden
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2016/05/28 15:17:10 (permalink)
mcouture1961
Basic question that may sound stupid for many of you.
 
Talsking about recording. Not mixing. Since we all hear in stereo, shouldn't we record every instrument in stereo? If I am facing a band/orchestra I hear the whole thing in stereo but also each instrument. What should be recorded mono and why ?
 
I often thought about that but never figured it out. 


 
Yeah In know...ZOMBIE thread haha...but I camne across this thread looking for something else :P
To be honest we do not "hear" in stereo imo, we are hearing mono sources that are heard in each ear and the brain uses the differences in travel time to adjust location, height etc...nothing in nature creates sound in "stereo".
#49
jeteague
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2016/05/28 16:16:55 (permalink)
   This is an interesting thread and I have no wish to hijack it, but I am very confused regarding the comments on the panipulator plugin.  I cannot remember when I installed it but I have the panipulator on my prochannel.  I just assumed that everyone had it!
   Perhaps, I have misunderstood something here.  I have been using the panipulator      ( on the pro channel strip) on my master bus for at least six months.  It is really useful since there are switches for several pan laws and one switch to move the mix to mono or stereo.  You guys are talking as though it does not exist so I am really perplexed!  Am I nuts or what?
#50
jeteague
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2016/05/28 16:20:54 (permalink)
Oopps!  I never noticed the date on this thread --- please disregard my previous post. 
#51
konradh
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Re: How do you mix in Mono in Sonar? Best approach? 2016/05/29 18:39:36 (permalink)
If you want to see if your mix translates to mono, why wouldn't you just change the Master bus to Mono temporarily?  Changing every track doesn't seem like it would give you a realistic view of how your stereo mix will sound when reduced to mono playback.
 
It is far less common now than it used to be for your stereo master to end up in a mono playback system, but it happens and should be checked.
 

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