@OP - Do you own Sonar?  Have you actually used it yet?
 
Just asking..

Drone7

Anderton
 
Other than that I agree with much of the sentiment here - that SONAR is a host program. You can customize it pretty much any way you want with third-party accessories, like VSL if you want to do orchestral scoring to ReWiring Reason or using Geist as a plug-in.

Same goes for Reaper or any other DAW. How does this make Sonar special or give it an advantage when almost every DAW is based on the same basic concept?

 
The workflow, interface, and unique features that other DAWs don't have.
 

Are you forgetting that we buy DAWs in view of provided plugins that come with it, or for any plugins that might cater more closely to our specific preference of tools and sounds, and that DAWs are subject to 'value added' perceptions of potential customers.

 
You really can't generalize that much. Some people buy software for the provided plug-ins, some already have Waves plugs and Komplete and couldn't care less what a DAW includes. They may find ProChannel to be really useful, but already have most of what they want. They use SONAR for the workflow, interface, and unique features.  

1: An update of the Pentagon and PSYN synth-engines with an overhaul of the preset menus.

 
Pentagon is no longer included with SONAR. Just as you say you don't use loops, I don't use presets; I can see where others would find them useful points of departure if they don't know how to create their own sounds. But I think programmers are going to drift toward creating new sounds for something like z3ta 2 because it's more relevant. I'm pretty sure PSYNE is DirectX so there's little point in doing new development for it. When you program sounds for z3ta, you cover Windows, Mac, and iOS. I think that's more appealing to sound designers.

2: A dedicated drum-machine with unprocessed 'RAW' 24bit drum samples, but with slice/edit features similar to 'Groove Agent 4" in Cubase.

3: Four individual dedicated drum-sound modules each designed specifically for one purpose, in this case one for making Kicks, one for making all manner of phat Claps, one for open hi-hats (ala TR 909 esque) and one for all manner of snares. But these would have to be of the caliber of the ones found in Native Instruments "Maschine"

5: A plugin dedicated to making fill-sweeps and risers.

 
I think you're missing a very important point. Groove Agent sells for $180. Presumably, that's because it takes time and effort to develop. Similarly, creating new plug-ins requires time and effort. You're not going to get these for free, so if the price of SONAR went up by $200 to pay for creating these new plug-ins for a very specific audience, then anyone who doesn't do EDM is going to say "Screw paying $700 for SONAR, I don't need effing Groove Agent, I'm getting something else." This is why plug-ins exist. You want something like Groove Agent? Get Groove Agent if you want it...or don't, and save $180.
 
Something like VocalSync also takes time and effort to develop, and that represents a significant part of the update cost. However, it applies to anyone doing vocals, narration, ADR, and audio for video. So it hits a pretty broad range of users. It also costs much less than commercial equivalents because Cakewalk could build on an existing foundation. That would not be the case with building Groove Agent from scratch.
 

6: A dedicated ARP on-par with the one in Logic Pro X, 'integrated' into each channel.

What do the Logic ARPs have SONAR's dedicated arps (that are integrated in each channel) don't have?
 

4: A sound-module/rompler consisting of purely 'hardware synth' samples, and many presets in the form of Synth hooks, synth stabs, hoovers, synth plucks, evolving Trance pads, huge detuned unison leads, and gated pulsating drone [7]s LOL

 
Again, consider how much it costs to develop a new instrument, create a new core library, hire sound designers and programmers to create presets...that's going to add a lot to the cost of SONAR. It's better for Cakewalk and uses alike to develop a separate instrument and make it available for sale to those who want it, but not charge people a lot of money for something they may not want.

mettelus

jb101
@OP - Do you own Sonar?  Have you actually used it yet?
 
Just asking..

BINGO!!! I have seen Drone7 say "before I jump into SONARland" twice now, so am incredibly curious about these "comparisons" that are being thrown about.

I was wondering about that too. SONAR's arpeggiators are integrated into every channel and comparable to Logic's, so I don't know why he thinks SONAR needs that feature.

I just looked at Drone's suggestions. From what I read he's more interested in extra plugins and soft synths rather than improvements to the main app and it's workflow. In other words more fairy dust (everybody likes fairy dust until you have  so much of it you forget where it is). Almost everything he's asked for can be used across multiple genres, I really can't see why he would regard them as "EDM" specific.

The real solution then if you are really in need of "more stuff" is to go and buy some plugins and download some free ones. There are some very good free plugins out there. Another thing to do is improve your recording technique so you can customize your palette further, presets can only go so far. Get a Groove3 pass I suggest.
 
I'm not sure how much he paid for Sonar but I wonder how many third party plugins he could have bought for the price instead. Not that many I suspect. Probably about the same amount as that was included with the Sonar package (or less).

Splat
I'm not sure how much he paid for Sonar but I wonder how many third party plugins he could have bought for the price instead. Not that many I suspect. Probably about the same amount as that was included with the Sonar package (or less).

Far less. Trust me. That's what I was saying earlier about the other DAWs I was looking at. They were the same price for the core. To get the extras, even just the ones I needed? Those $500 DAWs turned into $1200-1500 money pits very quickly.
 

I have asked the OP this question before..
 
At first he said he was waiting for the latest update of another DAW so that he could compare the two.  When he was told that it was some way off, he was ready to buy Sonar..
 
The Second time, he told me that he was just about to buy it, as it only cost "pocket change"..
 
The third time, he had some problem or other with, IIRC, the membership model (even though he only showed an interest with Sonar post X3)..
 
I have seen many reasons as to why he is Nearly Buying Sonar, but no more.  His knowledge of Sonar, and other DAWS (many of which I have to use, sadly) seem based on hearsay, rather than experience.
 
In this thread he claims to be "fond of Sonar", but makes no comment about having finally bought it, or even tried the demo.
 
Meanwhile, back on topic, I know several respected members of this forum who produce EDM.  His "complaints" in this thread do not echo there's.  They have complaints, but his sound like someone who has only read reviews, etc., on the interweb.
 
I may be completely off the mark, but there we are..
 
 
 
 

He doesn't need to show his work to me, as there can be many reasons for not posting examples.  I can think of several learned friends on this forum who do not post their work, and do not need to.  Their expertise, knowledge and wisdom speaks volumes.
 
It might be nice if he could demonstrate any understanding or personal experience of using a DAW, rather than regurgitate marketing blurb, and t'interweb speculation.
 
Any DAW, I am not fussy.

Anderton
The workflow, interface, and unique features that other DAWs don't have.
 

 
Ahh, i see.
You are aware that I can wipe my ass with any brand of toilet paper, aren't you? LOL; so what exactly are you referring to? Are you suggesting that Sonar has reinvented the wheel? Considering that 99% of songs on the charts have not been made with Sonar, what unique feature (as you say) in Sonar would have made world-class songs in the charts better? I'm really dying to find-out just exactly what these so-called unique features are.
What do you think would happen if you said to Pro Tools users or Fruityloop users or Cubase users or Ableton Live users "features that other DAWs don't have". They would rightly laugh at you, correct? Unique features you say? Oh, are they so unique that world-class music hasn't been or can't be released without Sonar, or that any song likely to be released or cannot be accomplished without some enigmatic unique feature in Sonar as you call it? You're simply making no sense whatsoever to me!
 

Anderton
 
 
You really can't generalize that much. Some people buy software for the provided plug-ins, some already have Waves plugs and Komplete and couldn't care less what a DAW includes.   

 
If then, as you have just inferred, Sonar has superior workflow, how come the most popular and widely-used DAWs in the world are NOT SONAR????????????????? And if included plugins are inconsequential to the buyers as you suggest, then why do so many Sonar users inquire so intently about future forthcoming Sonar updates and ask about what new plugins will be added, and why do you and Cakewalk bother to provide any at all if these are not important? Shall i answer for you? Because "value added" perceptions are 'indeed' very much part of it, regardless of whether users or potential customers already own several preferred plugins, that's why!
 
 

Anderton
 
Just as you say you don't use loops, I don't use presets; I can see where others would find them useful points of departure if they don't know how to create their own sounds. But I think programmers are going to drift toward creating new sounds for something like z3ta 2 because it's more relevant. I'm pretty sure PSYN is DirectX so there's little point in doing new development for it. 

 
You seem to be suggesting that Z3TA+ has got all bases covered, as if PSYN II and Pentagon are not relevant, strange perception i reckon, but you may need to think again, how on earth is "drifting toward" creating new sounds for Z3TA+ "more relevant"? I asked for an overhaul of the PSYN and Pentagon synth engines, thus we would have three total synths to work with in Sonar right off the bat, correct; in whose mind is it more relevant to make sounds only for Z3TA+ and ignore the others, and why doesn't every EDM producer in the world just use Z3TA+ and get rid of everything else? I don't understand your reasoning, especially when all your comments seem geared toward promoting Sonar under any circumstance, admitting nothing from others criticisms of Sonar, and denying everything else. Yep, it seems i've got "stupid" written on my forehead LOL
 
 

Anderton
 
I think you're missing a very important point. Groove Agent sells for $180. Presumably, that's because it takes time and effort to develop. Similarly, creating new plug-ins requires time and effort. You're not going to get these for free, so if the price of SONAR went up by $200 to pay for creating these new plug-ins for a very specific audience, then anyone who doesn't do EDM is going to say "Screw paying $700 for SONAR, I don't need effing Groove Agent, I'm getting something else."  
 

And yet we have many plugins inside DAWs that apparently are 'free' by your reckoning, so apparently you are wrong. The large majority of plugins inside Sonar have long been paid for and no longer incur cost and therefore Sonar in it's current state is akin to a money-making tree in one sense. If these things cost money, then how all the latest additions? Didn't they cost money???????? So why aren't we being required to pay more money for those? You reckon it needs money to provide these, seeing as how you wanna wax lyrical about the finer-points of cost LOL
And how come Cubase users didn't complain about the overbloated price of Cubase, did they say "Screw paying $700 for Cubase" (which is what it costs in Australia), and they knew that they were getting Groove Agent LE. How come Logic Pro X comes standard with some necessary plugins that Sonar doesn't have? How come Frutyloops users get free updates for life??? How come Mixcraft Pro 7 is riddled with sounds and a multitude of plugins and only costs $89? Because clearly you're overstating the cost factor, that's why! There's more than one way to skin a cat, and the price of a DAW is not directly related to development costs of plugins! Let's tell the people some truth around here shall we! Why would a drum-machine or three plugins cause a price-rise of $200 to all buyers of Sonar? The price of a DAW is related more to how much money the DAW company think they can save while still garnering sales, and that's the primary driver behind the price, what little can they spend why still competing with the other DAWs, it's all 'perception based' selling, like everything else in the world. An iPhone 6 costs a grand total of exactly $245 to manufacture (that's a fact) and yet it sells for $800 outright, NOTHING TO DO WITH PRODUCTION COSTS!!!. Companies command their own profit margins based on what they think they can get away with and what they think market value of the DAW is, in other words it's based on the universal supply-and-demand principle of all trade. For a closer analysis, lets say 5,000 Sonar users by $200 extra (as you say); that equates to one million dollars, right? Well i can tell everyone reading this that it does not take $1,000,000 to produce three plugins, or just a sampled-based drum-machine plugin, that's for certain, so you're actually quite misleading in your assertions, unless you can prove that making three fairly basic plugins will require $1,000, 000, and i know it doesn't. I could design and produce a software drum-machine with a big palette of 24bit samples for $5000, so what indeed are you on about???
 
 

Anderton
 
6: A dedicated ARP on-par with the one in Logic Pro X, 'integrated' into each channel.
What do the Logic ARPs have SONAR's dedicated arps (that are integrated in each channel) don't have?

 
 
Much, actually!
 
 

Anderton
Again, consider how much it costs to develop a new instrument, create a new core library, hire sound designers and programmers to create presets...that's going to add a lot to the cost of SONAR. It's better for Cakewalk and uses alike to develop a separate instrument and make it available for sale to those who want it 

 
But many here have already made it known that they would like Dimension Pro to be updated, it is obvious that the stock sounds are not world-class, so why does Cakewalk keeping shipping this 7 year old Dimension Pro thingy mijig? And as i've already expressed, creating a new core library in a rompler is not as expensive as you would have us believe. Economies of scale would recoup the cost while still boding well for Sonar sales overall. Truth be known, this is really all about Cakewalk essentially saying that this is a DAW for Guitar fiddlers and Trumpet blowers and EP players, and not for EDM producers. So why do you keep resorting to this faulty line of reasoning? Many users of Sonar would be happy to have my suggested plugins onboard, they are relevant and prime fundamentals for EDM, so are you saying that Sonar does not really cater to EDM, and thus my OP? Users of any DAW have the right to say what they desire to see in their DAW, this is well-known, so does Cakewalk have a problem with users mentioning such things? I notice you like to appear as though you always know better, Mr Anderton, and you like to have the last say on any matter as if we have it all wrong, and i'm getting sick and tired of it quite frankly, so shall we leave this here for all to see, and see if you or i get validated by public opinion, and in the meantime maybe you can leave your incessant retorts out of it for a while??
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

If Sonar doesn't meet your needs, don't buy it. Quit bashing on Craig.

He's still not acknowledging you can get plugins and samples are all over the place for free, and that he can buy them. I guess if this guy was serious and making a living as a producer he would have got a maschine, reaktor or something else by now.

As far as hits that are in the chart, I doubt the producers were here complaing in these forums, I think they were just working on a record and probably made music without much thought.

I'm seeing this more of a 'top trumps' gloss over discussion. It's amazing what marketing can do to people... I'm not really seeing him discuss Sonar in any particular depth, rather he's reading out the supplied goods sheet without drilling into any detail. I sense a lack of knowledge in this field and would strongly recommend a groove 3 subscription.

Splat
He's still not acknowledging you can get plugins and samples are all over the place for free.

 
Nah, can't be, according to Mr Anderton these would cost a large sum of money to develop, so apparently these guys providing the free plugins are either damn rich and bored, or as i clearly stated, these plugins do not cost anywhere near as much money to develop as some would have us believe. Free? Who do you think you're kidding LOL
 
 
And for the record, i do respect Mr Anderton's status in the music industry and his accomplishments, but that doesn't mean i have to be a doormat in these forums and watch him attempt to usurp and contradict nearly everything i say.

The absolute last thing sonar needs for electronic music is more instruments and audio content. What it needs is duplicate, an automation envelope system that isn't geriatric, and to be able to record soft synths in real-time. All three of these are in the feedback forum right now, I welcome you to give the posts 5 stars.
 
"world-class" producers don't use any synths that are included in any daw, they use Massive, Nexus, Alchemy, SynthMaster, FM8 and Sylenth. Quite a few of them use Z3ta+ however (it was recently recommended by none other than synthesis god BT in an interview). I don't think there is anything you can do in psyn or pentagon that you can't in z3ta+, so why bother to update these dinosaurs? There's also Rapture, anyway. As for Dim Pro, it's a rompler for old school sounds. Some people prefer making good 90s or 80s music than that ear-raping millennial ****, believe it or not. You need a better rompler: get Nexus. Which doesn't come included with any other daw, again.
 
If you need a better arp, get a synth with a better arp, or get Cthulhu or Kirnu Cream. There's this thing called VST support for a reason in Sonar.
 
Jesus H Christ, man.
 
If anything, I'd say dolts like you are the reason Cakewalk don't spend more time catering to the desires of the electronic music crowd. The guitar grandpas at least don't constantly talk out of their ass and **** and moan incessantly for no valid reason whatsoever.

Spencer
The guitar grandpas at least don't constantly talk out of their ass and **** and moan incessantly for no valid reason whatsoever.

Umm.

No never mind :)
Edit - sorry missed 'constantly'... Count me in :)
Enjoyed the post.

Reminds me. I haven't turned on my Maschine or used Massive/Reaktor/Absynth for quite a while. I feel a tune coming on :)

Or I could just pick up the guitar...
Did a dubstep track last Dec.

Chandler
On top of that for people who don't like EDM, it could be used for percussion. Cakewalk could sample shakers, tambourines, marktrees, etc and make it valuable to people who only use traditional instruments too. another idea would be to sample metal hits, door slams, glass breaks, etc and then process them to create a drum kits like Heavyocity Damage. I already have this plug in, so it's not that great for me if it's added to Sonar, but for others I think it would be nice. Alsoit is a tool that can be used in any genre. since the plugin itself is cheap I'm guessing the licensing fee will be quite reasonable, but who knows.

NO. It can't be true... A plugin that caters for more than one genre of music? Impossible!!!