Impromptu w/Rik edited 3/2

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Janet
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2015/03/01 11:44:41 (permalink)

Impromptu w/Rik edited 3/2

Well, looooong time, no see!  Finally got one finished up, thanks to Rik.  Rik (Frieling) started this one and I finally got around to adding to it.  Very sadly, he can hardly play the guitar anymore, so this is even more special to me.  I'd be happy for any production hints (or otherwise), since it's hard enough for me to learn this stuff when I think about it 24/7.  And I guess it's impossible when I only do one song every two years.  :(  I've missed you all!  
 
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=789731&songID=13063700
 
 March 2, evening...I did some more panning and toned down the keys a bit.  
 
post edited by Janet - 2015/03/02 22:35:27
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    Lynn
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/01 12:04:59 (permalink)
    Very nice, Janet.  It's good to hear you and Rik playing together, and it's nice to hear from you again!

    All the best,
    Lynn

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    Wookiee
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/01 12:10:12 (permalink)
    Good to hear you playing again Mamabear and also nice to hear Rik, please pass my best to him.
     
    This is very pleasant the only thing I would suggest is to pan Rik's guitar a little more to the right to get better separation from the piano.
     
    Thanks for sharing both of you.

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    Beagle
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/01 13:11:57 (permalink)
    this is nice, Janet
     
    what's wrong with Rik?
     
    tell him he's missed, as well as you!  this Is beautiful!  thanks for sharing!

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    Janet
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/01 14:17:14 (permalink)
    Thanks Lynn!
     
    Good idea...and simple to do, Wookiee.  I'll try that. Thanks!
     
    Thanks Reece.  The doctors aren't sure I guess.  :(  
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    Guitarhacker
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/01 18:56:10 (permalink)
    Nice work... pretty melodic composition....
     
    Good to see you gracing the songs forum again.

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    Starise
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/01 19:06:26 (permalink)
    Beautiful job on this Janet/Rik...very nice indeed!

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    Janet
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/01 19:41:46 (permalink)
    Thanks, Tim & Herb!
     
    Criticisms really are welcome too.  You guys don't just have to be nice. :)  
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    tbosco
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/02 05:51:30 (permalink)
    Janet this tune made my coffee go down even more smoothly this morning.  Very nice!!  I might have liked to hear some of the strings be on the left to balance it out a bit  (maybe my monitors' levels need checking??), and I agree with Wookie about getting a bit more guitar/piano separation.   Minor stuff.

    Cheers!

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    Janet
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/02 08:59:24 (permalink)
    Thanks very much Tony!
     
    And thank you, too, Larry!  Good to see you again.
     
    Can anyone give me instructions about exactly how to pan this?  IOW, which instrument should be in the center?  Cello, guitar, piano...
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    Wookiee
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/02 09:07:29 (permalink)
    Probably let the piano sit in the centre as it is naturally broad sounding instrument, then the Cello of to one side (left?) and the guitar to opposite (right?) but that is only a suggestion.  Also it only needs a tiny pan 20% max either way I would say.

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    Janet
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/02 09:10:03 (permalink)
    Thanks so much! That helps.  :) 
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    tbosco
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/02 09:33:02 (permalink)
    I agree...piano center.   Guitar a little left, high strings a little right (so the high freqs will balance with the guitar), cello maybe a little left?
     
    Actually, it could be fun to try a little Mid-Side processing to the track and see if you can get a spread of the high strings to both left and right.  Or get wild and try a stereo widener or something similar to those strings.  :-)

    Cheers!

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    Wookiee
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/02 09:37:17 (permalink)
    Equally good plan Tony to use some Mid Side, if you have channel tools you can use that to create the effect Tony suggests.

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    Janet
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/02 09:46:26 (permalink)
    Ah, those strings!  Actually that's just 'strings' embedded in my Ivory piano sound.  So I can't really separate them.  But I'll see if I can pan them separately from the piano.  Probably not, but I'll check. Thanks again, both of you. ;) 
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    Beagle
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/02 10:30:06 (permalink)
    well, I had a big long response typed and I hit the "X" instead of a different tab and it's all gone.
     
    piano will be stereo output
    strings might also be stereo output
     
    those two are already panned the way they "should" be, so don't pan them off of center.  IF your "high strings" are violins ONLY, then they should be panned left.  if they include other strings (cello, viola, double bass...) then they should ALREADY be output panned correctly in the stereo field.
     
    (NOTE:  I did not listen closely enough to try to figure that out, and I can't get to it from work right now)
     
    if you have a cello besides strings, it should go on the right, therefore put the guitar on the left.
     
    if you want more info on the why...I'll try to respond again later, but I don't have time to retype all that right now.

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    Janet
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/02 10:38:51 (permalink)
    Thanks Reece. What I meant to say was those 'strings' are a synth in my Ivory (piano) software, so I doubt if I can pan them separately from the piano.  (And I'm not sure I want to take the time to write a real strings part/s.)  So I was thinking of putting the cello on the right, since that where it sits in an orchestra.  Anyway, so that answers my question. Thanks so much. Sorry you lost your response. :(  
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    bapu
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/02 11:49:39 (permalink)
    JMO but the piano sounds like every note is a velocity of 127. They're probably not but that's the only way I can describe it.
     
    The whole piece sounds kind of mono but other have made suggestions to rectify that.
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    dcumpian
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/02 18:44:49 (permalink)
    Very pretty piece Janet and Rik. Sad to hear about Rik, I hope he recovers. Other than panning, I don't think there is much more to be done on this. Just declutter the middle and open up the space a bit and you're there.
     
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    Freddy J
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/02 21:35:22 (permalink)
    Very beautiful composition and nice playing.  Well done!  I am sorry to hear about Rik -- I always enjoy hearing his stuff on the forum.
    It is great hearing you back on the forum and I hope you will be back on it more.
     
     
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    Janet
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/02 22:32:48 (permalink)
    OK, just checked it out.  I had the guitar and cello panned on the buses and now have also panned them on the individual tracks.  I'm listening on headphones, so can't tell if it helped or not.  I toned down the piano a bit. Not sure why you heard the piano all at 127, Bapu, but it could have just been too loud.  The synth is already 100% wide. 
     
    Thank you, Dan, for checking in.  :) Yes, it really saddens me to think Rik may not play again.  He plays so beautifully.  Would have loved to do a CD or two with him.  Not that I have time anyway, but I wish he could...
     
    Thanks very much Freddy.  Good to see you again.  Don't hold your breath, but we'll see. :)  
     
    You guys are great!
     
    Oh, and I posted a new version just now.  I'll edit my post up top.  
    #21
    bayoubill
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/02 23:39:00 (permalink)
    ahh Mamabear!!! This is beautiful! Great playing by Rik and yourself as usual. Thank you!!! Rik your tone is pristine! I love it 

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    emeraldsoul
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/02 23:48:46 (permalink)
    Howdy! This certainly is a nice mellow piece. I'm a big fan of Mark Knopfler as I'm sure many are - kind of "Princess Bride" territory, very nice.
     
    Sorry to hear of the guitarists illness and hope things improve for him! I'm new around here, so I didn't get to hear anything in the "years ago" category, but judging by the comments of others, seems like their was much respect and admiration for you both!
     
    OK, I did think that during the first minute of the song, the piano and the guitar seemed to be fighting each other rhythmically, seemed a bit out of sync. It seemed like both were trying to establish the rhythm of the song, but it wasn't the same rhythm. It got better in this regard towards the end, which was more of a true blend and more lined up rhythmically. Perhaps I'm the only one who notices this, but you could look at more editing in the first minute, to bring things in line. ?
     
    Perhaps the answer is, during one part of the song, the piano could be brought forward (louder) as prominent, and then switch - later the guitar could be foreground (with the piano background).
     
    Your piano playing is lovely, which version of Ivory are you using? I have the Ivory D "American Steinway, but I'm not exactly in love with it . . .
     
    Overall, it's a cool combo and a very soothing kind of piece, nice job. Have you tried it without the cello/string line? Just the piano and the guitar?
     
    cheers, and thanks for the share,
    -Tom

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    Janet
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/03 13:59:00 (permalink)
    Thanks, Bill.  Yeah, he's good, isn't he? :)
     
    Thanks, Tom!  And BAM!  You nailed it!  This is a hard one to play along with.  He laid down his part first, with no regard for timing (he knows it). :)  My piano would be the same except I play to a drum track and can then edit it using PRV.  Anyway, so it's hard to get the timing just right and I'm not perfectly happy with it.  I threw it up here to see what you guys thought.  I never thought about having the instruments take turns being prominent.  That's a good idea, actually, and one that most people probably follow.  I have a hard time making those decisions in mixing though.  (that's only one of my problems in mixing).  :)  And about the cello...I just added that last minute, hoping to add something nice to the bottom.  Take it out, huh?  I'll try that again and see.  I do love that low part. But if you're thinking everything's fighting too much, you're probably right.  I've struggled with that a lot...wanting to play along, but not quite sure how.  I imagine some strings and no piano would be best. I'll think about it.
     
    I can't remember which version of Ivory I have.  When I boot up my DAW I'll check and get back to you.  I'm totally in love with it, but I messed with it a lot when I first got it, using a few guys' input for dialing it in. 
     
    Thanks for the input.  I have about 90 songs on my soundclick page if you want to hear what I did years ago.  But I won't be offended at all it you don't! :)  
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    markno999
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/03 18:09:19 (permalink)
    Janet,
     
    Very nice song.  Great to hear your and Rik's playing again.  Lot of great suggestions above, I am hearing the 3/2 mix so missed some of the early versions and this mix sounds good.    It sounds very nice, however, some timing issues that make the parts seem to step on each other and ultimately take away from the overall performances.   
     
    I think, as you mentioned, that you got Rik's part and then played along with it.    I think if you create a tempo map to Rik's original performance that would bring things together.  The great thing about Rik's playing, other than being an awesome player, is his natural cadence abilities for this style music.   If you are playing to a click track that has the tempo mapped, much easier to match up all the parts.  At that point you could loosely quantize some of the piano to tighten it up rather than dragging individual notes around in the PRV.
     
    Really beautiful song and playing by both though.  Very much enjoyed it.

    Regards  
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    Janet
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/04 20:21:33 (permalink)
    Thanks so much, Mark. Always enjoy reading your input.  I'm not sure what you mean by creating a tempo map.
     
    Thanks again for stopping by. I appreciate it!  And yes, he's good.  ;) 
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/04 21:27:25 (permalink)
    Janet,
     
    A tempo map would create a project tempo that follows Rik's performance.   Most songs that are performed by real humans (not computers) don't follow a defined tempo, there is a ebb and flow in the timing.   When you have performance that meanders around in timing, a tempo map follows that timing and helps you keep everything in sync. Like a conductor keeping the orchestra in time.....
     
    A number of ways to make them.   You line up the start of the performance to a measure (I usually start at measure 2) so that the first beat is aligned perfectly to the first measure.   Then you can manually map them, or, I have been using Melodyne to automatically create the tempo map.  Sometimes Melodyne works great or gets it close enough that minor tweaks will get you there.   Here is a tutorial by Karl Rose (fasktbikerboy) showing how to do a tempo map.
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HPlejc2HkE
     
    Regards
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    Janet
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik 2015/03/04 21:32:26 (permalink)
    Thanks Mark!  Never tried that before, so I may just check into that. :)  
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik edited 3/2 2015/03/06 12:11:16 (permalink)
    Hi Janet!
             Glad you are still involved. As others have given mix advice, I will only comment on the fact that I enjoyed the listen.
              Wishing you the best.

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    Wookiee
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    Re: Impromptu w/Rik edited 3/2 2015/03/06 13:02:38 (permalink)
    Definitely sounding much better now.

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