Sacalait
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For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/993807-late-great-pro-tools.htmlthere's enough evidence to state that no DAW sounds "better" than another DAW. I've been a Sonar user since Sonar 7 (actually used Cakewalk for Windows for YEARS back from 1989 to about 2004- on a couple of different computers. It was strictly a midi program then). Anyway, I saw this new thread tonight and it re-enforced why I stay with Sonar.
www.pershingwells.com www.facebook.com/pershingwells Sonar Platinum, PC- Intel i7-4770K w/16 Gig RAM Windows 8.1, Solid State Drive and eSATA drives, Mytek, RME UFX, RME Multiface II, Roland VS700, A-Designs Pacifica, UA LA610, Presonus RC500. A-Designs Hammer EQ, DBX, AKG, Neumann, Roland, JBL, Fender, Gibson, G&L, Marshall, Korg, Martin, Shure, Electrovoice, Yamaha, Chameleon Labs comps.
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Anderton
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/16 00:30:49
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To be fair, it seems many of the problems people have with "software" are really about the hardware. I can run Pro Tools fine, it doesn't crash or act weird. I don't get as high track counts as SONAR, but the reason I use SONAR is because I like the workflow better, and it has several features that are important to me but Pro Tools doesn't have. I totally understand why people are dumping PT for Logic if they don't need the hardware/compatibility. IMHO Logic is the most "SONAR-like" of the various Mac programs. Then again I know quite a few people who run SONAR under Boot Camp with the Mac...there really is something for everybody these days  However, I will say the degree of commitment I see from Cakewalk to SONAR bodes really well for the future. The company seems to have a definite direction. I'm not sure I see as much of that with some other companies.
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Woodyoflop
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/16 01:52:13
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^^ agreed. Ive used pro tools,logic, cubase etc... I started with cubase actually when my father introduced me to sonar and I loved it. The engineering side is mostly in user experience/knowledge. I'm sure a veteran pro tools user or even Adobe audition user could produce. Better results than an amateur sonar user. It is vise versa as well. I like sonar for work flow. I also am used to it so I might be biased.
But most PT users I meet are generally bandwagoners that don't usually have knowledge of how effects work or much musical knowledge at all. They get PT because they are told it's industry standard and big names use it. Not saying it's a bad program, but many users don't actually even know the real reasons that a DAW is good.
Good thing to keep in mind, just because something is industry standard does not mean something else can't exceed the standard ;)
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Dave Modisette
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/16 08:56:34
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My only beef with Pro Tools right now is the "second class citizen" attitude that the user base and the Avid company seems to take with the PT native users. Avid seems to have painted themselves into a corner and if they finally un-cripple certain features or add new features for the native based customers they risk upsetting the hardware users who are sitting there with big bucks invested in gear designed only for Pro Tools.
The SONAR features I miss in PT is Track Freeze but PT has an off line bounce now so that might be a wash.
Track Templates but there is a work around that requires a little file manipulation and gets the same result (and you can basically create Aux bus templates, as well.)
But the biggest thing is automatically muting playback on a track when recording is underway so that you can utilize real time monitoring capabilities of your soundcard. I use a 3rd party app that creates a virtual HUI and automatically mutes tracks I'm recording but it creates virtual midi devices and messes with my device count in Windows.
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kitekrazy1
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/16 12:13:55
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Sacalait
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/993807-late-great-pro-tools.html
there's enough evidence to state that no DAW sounds "better" than another DAW. I've been a Sonar user since Sonar 7 (actually used Cakewalk for Windows for YEARS back from 1989 to about 2004- on a couple of different computers. It was strictly a midi program then).
Anyway, I saw this new thread tonight and it re-enforced why I stay with Sonar.
These are a dime a dozen and can be seen on every DAW forum concerning every DAW that's made. Every commercial release is often run through Pro Tools. I think Pro Tools is struggling with an identity crisis. It use to be hands off to hobbyists then came along more affordable versions with the M-Powered and now it's back up being very pricey. Even the rental model I think is also expensive.
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Keni
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/16 16:51:44
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☄ Helpfulby jbow 2015/03/16 18:14:07
I've used most of these DAWs over the years as a particular need arose, but always returned to Sonar as Craig mentions, the workflow is better fir me... Each software has something and misses something otgers have... Keeping up with the joneses goes on...
The only thing I find PT has an advantage about is how many studios buy into the myth that PT us the only serious DAW... So using it does make it easier to travel between these studios carrying your work...
I even know one such studio who's owner uses Sonar himself, but as people are willing to pay extra for PT sessions, he touts that in the studio...
It's really easy enough to transfer tracks between programs, so unless you're in the world class category of artists and planning to work a single project in a number of studios, I see no reason to do otherwise... And even there, laptops are now powerful enough to do essentially anyone's mixes... So if I were in such a large scale operation, I would simply carry my own Sonar laptop and connect to each studio's audio chain... Using their' rooms and hardware and never needing to transfer files anywhere! ;-)
Keni
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konradh
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/16 22:41:43
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I've used Sonar since Windows 3.1 so I have no desire to learn a new DAW unless there is something extremely major to be gained—and I'm not seeing that. I can play a piano with my eyes closed while talking to someone, and I can get to Sonar functions without even thinking about it.
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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theheliosequence
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/17 05:14:58
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While I prefer using Sonar over Pro Tools, I have never met one person using Sonar in the Portland music scene, nor have I actually met another Sonar user in the flesh ever (seriously)... and I've been around - using Sonar since Cakewalk 3.0 in the 90's and my band has been playing since '96.
When I started doing "professional" studio work (outside of doing my band for a living) I quickly realized that life would be a lot easier if I owned Pro Tools. Every single project that has come my way has been a Pro Tools session except for maybe one Logic session. While I certainly don't think Pro Tools is the S**t... I definitely seems like it's still the industry standard. Thankfully I was able to purchase the Native version and not have to buy into their ridiculously priced hardware...
There are definitely some very huge problems with Pro Tools from my perspective. Like Dave Modisette mentioned, their Native software is unnecessarily crippled by their hardware system (I curse a lot when I'm using it)... and their poor hardware users are charged ridiculous upgrade fees for already overpriced hardware... not to mentioned all the old HD users that kind of got screwed during the AAX transition. I don't know what Avid is doing/thinking but it doesn't feel very good so far...
I'm torn between wanting Avid go bankrupt or drop Pro Tools and have them de-throned or hoping that Avid gets their s**t together and makes Pro Tools a great modern DAW that borrows all the great features from other platforms that have been around for the last 10 years. If the latter, then I've got two good DAWs and probably won't have to learn another one. If Pro Tools is de-throned, then who becomes the industry standard? I mostly hear about Logic being used otherwise. Not sure if I want the industry standard program to be an Apple based product...
Guess I'll just keep waiting and watching. Like all things music industry related - I hope for the best, but expect the worst. I'm still rooting and hoping for Sonar to keep getting better and better...
-Benjamin
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BJN
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/17 08:42:52
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When I was new to Digital Recording on a computer ProTools ruled the seas.
It was the Industry standard, computing power was not what it is today and
you needed the hardware DSP interfaces.
Many many invested heavily and remained committed thereby.
In the last few years computing power is so grand that all you need is a great package like Sonar to make great recording and mixes. There are plenty DAWs to choose from.
Sonar ranks no. 1 in value for money. You get all you need right out of the box.
There are some great DAWs nowadays ProTools is still one of them.
But value is not as good as Sonar.
------------------------------------------------------- Magic: when you feel inspired to create which in turn inspires more creation. And the corollary: if magic happens inspiration might flog it to death with numerous retakes. Bart Nettle
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lfm
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/17 09:39:56
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theheliosequence
I don't know what Avid is doing/thinking but it doesn't feel very good so far...
I'm torn between wanting Avid go bankrupt or drop Pro Tools and have them de-throned or hoping that Avid gets their s**t together and makes Pro Tools a great modern DAW that borrows all the great features from other platforms that have been around for the last 10 years. If the latter, then I've got two good DAWs and probably won't have to learn another one. If Pro Tools is de-throned, then who becomes the industry standard? I mostly hear about Logic being used otherwise. Not sure if I want the industry standard program to be an Apple based product...
Guess I'll just keep waiting and watching. Like all things music industry related - I hope for the best, but expect the worst. I'm still rooting and hoping for Sonar to keep getting better and better...
-Benjamin
I followed Avid closely for a while - Nasdaq debuckle etc. Get the feeling it's all about personal gain for the members of the board - and their own futures-programs and about development of the shares on stockmarket. Today actually, Avid is to hold the Q4-2014 conference telling about how they are doing - well, were doing end of 2014 when this new policy was announced. This is two months after Microsoft got their act together - and they have a lot of companies to report corporation results. Avid was eager to announce new stuff early this year, like ProTools First, ProTools 12 etc - that not have seen the light of day yet(and PT finally may get track freeze...). So it's all about running investor expectations to be good. And when anything not so good - they withhold that information - thinking about no Q-reports for 2 1/2-years and got delisted on Nasdaq as a result. Now Avid are a couple of months later with their reports than other companies - seems they are holding back bad information as long as possible. Stockmarket is driven by expectations more than anything. By this time tomorrow we will know how Avid were doing...
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cryophonik
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/17 14:46:01
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Why is it that every time I come to this forum, there is a thread dumping on PT on the front page? For the life of me, I cannot understand why Sonar users are so insecure about PT.
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dubdisciple
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/17 16:13:06
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cryophonik
Why is it that every time I come to this forum, there is a thread dumping on PT on the front page? For the life of me, I cannot understand why Sonar users are so insecure about PT.
I'm going to chalk it up to part coincidence and part the nature of the business. Relatively speaking, PT topics are a very small percentage of posts here. You have to go tons of pages back to find more than a handful of dedicated PT topics and even those are not all dumping. It's also pretty normal for competition to come up on any forum and the results be negative. You are going to find tons of Yankee bashing posts on a Red Sox forum, PC bashing on a Mac forum, etc. Considering that PT is somewhat the big bad wolf, PT dumping here is mild abd far from universal.
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dubdisciple
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/17 16:20:07
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2015/03/17 20:52:03
I got asked by a student last night why we didn't use pro tools in our studio. I reminded him that we do have pro tools...we just don't use it. I asked him what he felt we needed that Pro Tools had and we lacked? Needless to say he had no answers. I helped him out by acknowledging that it is useful to understand PT and that it is still the standard in the industry. I also explained why it was not a good fit for what we do. Without the hardware advantages involved in a high level PT setup, most of the differences are a matter of workflow preference when it comes to actual software.
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konradh
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/17 18:10:59
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So, to summarize what I am reading, if you use ProTools you have to choose between a Native version that is missing a lot of functions, or a hardware version that is expensive (and may require expensive upgrades). Do I have that right?
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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Dave Modisette
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/17 22:03:11
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konradh
So, to summarize what I am reading, if you use ProTools you have to choose between a Native version that is missing a lot of functions, or a hardware version that is expensive (and may require expensive upgrades). Do I have that right?
I wouldn't call it a lot of features but there is one crucial feature - the ability to automatically turn off real time monitoring when punching in. Some would also include VCAs but I've never had them so I don't miss them. There's also limitations on simultaneous inputs and track counts but I've never hit the limits.
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Splat 
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/17 23:51:44
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cryophonik
Why is it that every time I come to this forum, there is a thread dumping on PT on the front page? For the life of me, I cannot understand why Sonar users are so insecure about PT.
What makes me laugh occasionally is that sometimes I'm googling for a solution to an OP's problem, and the OP is stating something like Sonar is a POS etc... and often I find the solution on a Pro Tools thread which points to a windows or plugin issue from somebody who has exactly the same issue stating Pro tools is a piece of doggy doo. Maybe those two guys could meet in a pub one day and realise they were both looking at the floor.... This is modern life nowadays sadly, often people prefer to find something to blame rather than search for a solution. My absolutely fav nowadays is when people state they want compensation from Cakewalk for their time, and then when we find it isn't a Sonar issue... it all goes quiet... Maybe they should get their wallet out... Most people are cool however and just want help...
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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Anderton
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/18 02:14:32
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As I've said many times, if only one DAW existed, I would make music with it. I've tracked many classical sessions with Pro Tools. It works. But I do the editing in SONAR. It works too I'm never going to bash any DAW maker. I know the people who work on these programs and by and large, they are dedicated people who care about what they do. But all of them also have different ideas about what a DAW should prioritize. All a user really has to do is find out which DAW company's priorities match yours. It really is that simple.
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Dave Modisette
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/18 09:16:31
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Splat
cryophonik
Why is it that every time I come to this forum, there is a thread dumping on PT on the front page? For the life of me, I cannot understand why Sonar users are so insecure about PT.
What makes me laugh occasionally is that sometimes I'm googling for a solution to an OP's problem, and the OP is stating something like Sonar is a POS etc... and often I find the solution on a Pro Tools thread which points to a windows or plugin issue from somebody who has exactly the same issue stating Pro tools is a piece of doggy doo.
Maybe those two guys could meet in a pub one day and realise they were both looking at the floor....
This is modern life nowadays sadly, often people prefer to find something to blame rather than search for a solution.
My absolutely fav nowadays is when people state they want compensation from Cakewalk for their time, and then when we find it isn't a Sonar issue... it all goes quiet... Maybe they should get their wallet out...
Most people are cool however and just want help...
Very true. I reported a problem with the new VCC 2 release to Slate Digital . To make sure it wasn't a SPlat only issue, I tried the same recipe in Studio One 2.5 and Pro Tools 11 and had issues with all three platforms. They didn't manifest the exact behavior but there was something unexpected happening with all three platforms.
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theheliosequence
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/18 19:06:23
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☄ Helpfulby Sacalait 2015/03/18 22:57:49
konradh
So, to summarize what I am reading, if you use ProTools you have to choose between a Native version that is missing a lot of functions, or a hardware version that is expensive (and may require expensive upgrades). Do I have that right?
Yup! Other native limitations beyond having to mute every channel you record... If you're running things at 96kHz then the 48 voice limit is very easy to hit on complex projects. It will just randomly make extra tracks inactive. Also... there isn't unlimited delay compensation (the hardware systems can't deliver the proper performance with this) so there are massive limitations to running the highest quality plugins. For example, you can't run Equilibrium in the highest quality mode... no problem in Sonar... you can't run any of the new Acustica Audio mastering EQs (using BlueCat Patchwork)... no problem in Sonar... iZotope RX4 doesn't even offer the high quality modes in their AAX restoration plugins in Pro Tools because it can't handle the latency... again, not a problem in Sonar. I actually think Sonar may be more efficient overall as I seem to be able to run much more FX before dropout there... There is the 32 in and out limit as well that creates a problem for any soundcard/interface with more than 32 channels. I have a RME MADI FX card which has 192 possible inputs/outputs (even though I'm only using 12) so I have to put the RME in a special Pro Tools mode that limits the total channel count to 32 in order to even use it. It's annoying to constantly be switching modes, but thankfully RME at least made it possible to use the MADI FX with Pro Tools. I'm sure some people would simply be out of luck with the wrong interface. And not related specifically to the Native system, but things that were a bit shocking when coming from Sonar... Because of their voice based system (mentions above with the 48 voice/track limitation at 96kHz), which allows them to guarantee performance based on which Pro Tools system you have, it seems that they will also always be limited in what one could do with a single channel. For example, they have playlists, which is kind of like their layer and two different waveforms can be cross-faded together for comping and they have a nifty little system to do so which is actually pretty good. But in Sonar, you can have any number of layers playing at all once in the same track without limitation. Editing becomes much more powerful this way and the options are basically limitless... Pro Tools will never be able to offer this kind of flexibility because only voice can play per track and only two waves can be used to cross-fade. One could mix an entire song in Sonar on one track if they really wanted to... per object FX is a sad missing feature in PT. It's still a good program and although it's expensive, it's sounds great and allows much more accessibility to professional studios and collaborating with other artist - which for me it has more than paid for itself. If it were only available to purchase with the hardware... I probably wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. -Benjamin
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Sacalait
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Re: For Anyone Who Thinks ProTools is the S**t...
2015/03/18 23:02:50
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thanks for the informed response theheliosequence good to hear from someone in the know between the two DAW's. I've ALWAYS said that if I had to switch DAW's JUST to make a living, I'm doing something wrong! Yes, I work with other producers who use ProTools. But it's never encumbered me.
www.pershingwells.com www.facebook.com/pershingwells Sonar Platinum, PC- Intel i7-4770K w/16 Gig RAM Windows 8.1, Solid State Drive and eSATA drives, Mytek, RME UFX, RME Multiface II, Roland VS700, A-Designs Pacifica, UA LA610, Presonus RC500. A-Designs Hammer EQ, DBX, AKG, Neumann, Roland, JBL, Fender, Gibson, G&L, Marshall, Korg, Martin, Shure, Electrovoice, Yamaha, Chameleon Labs comps.
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