precisionguided
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Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
I'm having an issue wherein I have to have my buffers at 4096 to have no dropouts and even then, I still get the occasional dropout. This is with my CPU usage not even hitting 25%. This is particularly vexing because loading up a project that uses 85% of my cpu in Reaper with an obscene amount of plugins and such at a buffer of 64. For the sake of troubleshooting, the relevant computer specs are as follows: 4790K - overclocked to 4.7GHz 16GB RAM Motu 1248 connected via USB As I stated, the system is stable everywhere else and runs perfectly fine in reaper.
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DeeringAmps
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/18 12:11:40
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C:\Users\ yourname\AppData\Roaming\Cakewalk\ SONAR Platinum\AUD.INI Rename AUD.INI to AUD.old or whatever you want. If you're not running Platinum, open whatever version you are running (all Sonar's installed will be there). Might not hurt to rename all the AUD files in the various Versions. Try that, you can't hurt anything, you will lose any "friendly" input/output names (take a screen shot prior to the change). You will also have to re-set some the of Audio settings in Preferences>Audio check them all. AppData is a "hidden" folder, you might have to tell Windows to let you see hidden folders. Solved a bunch of issues I was having with dropouts, snap, crackle, pop; simple projects, 2048 sample buffer; WTF? My "Cat" is a little long in the tooth, but she still "purrs" up a storm, and RME drivers are rock solid. I was at the point of contemplating a complete re-install of Windows; would've worked, that would have deleted the AUD.INI file. Best of luck, and don't ask me why it works. I compared the before\after ini files (its a text file). Order of "go", so to speak, was different; but I couldn't find a "problem". "Gremlins"? That or Rockus and Rollus, the Gods of rock music, where just havin' some fun at my expense. Again!  Tom
Tom Deering Tascam FW-1884 User Resources Page Firewire "Legacy" Tutorial, Service Manual, Schematic, and Service Bulletins Win10x64 StudioCat Pro Studio Coffee Lake 8086k 32gb RAM  RME UFX (Audio) Tascam FW-1884 (Control) in Win 10x64 Pro
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Cactus Music
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/18 12:22:21
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precisionguided
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/18 14:35:43
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I tried renaming the AUD file and it seems to have improved slightly but still performing terrible. I've run latencymon. No issues there, and like I said, in Reaper it runs fine even on low buffer settings. All vid card HDMI audio are all disabled.
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brundlefly
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/18 16:37:46
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Just to be clear, when you say "dropout", do you mean the transport stops with a "Toast" notification from SONAR? Or do you just get an occasional pop in the audio from a dropped buffer or some MIDI notes don't sound or...? If it's an actual transport stoppage, you should either see a CPU spike or the disk I/O icon flash red in SONAR's performance module. Then, if it's a CPU spike, I'd suspect some driver causing a DPC latency to spike or maybe an interoperability problem between SONAR and a particular plugin. If it's disk I/O, you might just need to increase your playback disk buffer size.
SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424 (24-bit, 48kHz) Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
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precisionguided
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/18 22:29:25
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It doesn't completely stop but the audio stutters or otherwise glitches. No CPU spikes and Ive tried increasing playback and disk buffers, but no dice. Also, since it's a 1tb raid 0 ssd array, the disk activity is only around 1 percent. For those who might suggest that it might be a raid problem, reaper has no trouble using the same array and when it was a hackintosh, logic had no trouble with it. Really tried everything I can think of here.
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submarin
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/18 22:57:58
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Motu drivers are really really bad on Windows, I´m running RME in my studio and have a Motu 828mk3 for live recordings, RME rocks withb lowest latencies with Platinum and the Motu always gives me problems..
i7 4770, 32 GB Ram, W8.1 64bit, RME Digiface, 3x RME Adi DS, Uad2 Quad, , Sonar Platinum, Cubase 8 pro, Reaper , Ableton Live www.m2-productions.com
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precisionguided
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/18 23:03:02
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Except that I have user low latency in Windows on reaper and ridiculously high latency in sonar. This suggests that the motu isn't the problem.
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ston
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/19 05:48:01
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RAID 0 should be OK (although I personally wouldn't bother with using a RAID array on a DAW or home PC, I prefer to backup). Given your system specs, there is no way you should ever be having to use an audio buffer size of > 256 samples. In my opinion, you should not be using SSD drives for your audio; system / application drive yes, but any drive that's going to have a lot of writes thrown at it should probably be a normal magnetic platter disk. Was that your decision, or did somebody give you that advice? Do you know the read/write speed balance for the SSD drives that you're using? It's not necessarily that they'll wear out and stop being usable after a period of time (high quality modern SSDs have something like a 5 year whole-disk write warranty!), but that there's an awful lot of checking, copying, wear-leveling, and shuffling around of data required on each block write, and the minimum amount of data is always an entire block; SSDs have built-in data redundancy, so like a mini RAID system all to themselves. What I'm trying to say here is that an SSD RAID array will not necessarily be a better choice for audio streaming than a fast SATA or SAS HDD. FSB (i.e. RAM access) timings can be critical, and there's a relationship between the CPU clock speed and the FSB speed. You are most likely having memory access/contention issues if you're seeing dropouts with a buffer size of 4096 bytes, so the first thing I'd suggest is to remove the overclocking from the CPU. If that doesn't help, try using a non-SSD drive for the audio, even a USB-connected external drive will do for this purpose. Also, try removing the Motu interface and select a non-ASIO driver in Sonar (try using Windows WDM, i.e. crappy motherboard audio). If none of the above helps to shed any light on the matter, it might be worth posting some more detailed specs here; mobo, memory, cpu, hard drives, raid controller, gfx card, OS, anti-virus s/w, attached peripherals etc.
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precisionguided
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/19 06:24:36
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I appreciate your thorough response. I did the raid myself and I'm seeing 1000MB/s (double what a single drive would do) read and write sequential. I Don't really have issues with redundancy as I have a backup solution for the audio drives. Also, I'm not worried about the wear and tear because Ssds now Have tons of write cycles in them. The overclock is the first thing I'd look at for troubleshooting too, but for the fact that it wasn't problematic in either logic or reaper. So all other factors are equal except the daw itself and yet one works and the other doesn't. It's also the same when I use my axe2 as the interface, so it's not something with just the motu and sonar. I've literally tried everything in terms of disabling, uninstalling my anti-virus, disabling network adapters, messing with the aud in terms of extra buffers, etc, and resetting it, disabling system restore, elevating the process to real-time and upping the it provisions in the system, trying different nvidia drivers starting a project from scratch, trying different USB ports, reinstalling the drivers, using mme and wdm drivers and a host of other things. I might have to just migrate to reaper until sonar becomes more stable (at least for my system. I know many of you have stable installations). Also I can't deal with the midi note dropouts.
post edited by precisionguided - 2015/03/19 06:37:51
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lfm
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/19 06:49:04
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Weird issue... I'm not sure how you ended up at 4096 samples buffer - I would put that down to 512 and look for other reasons to crackles, it's not buffersize that is the problem. Read somewhere, not sure if about ASIO or some other reason, but just increasing isn't better - and much dependent on drivers if it locks the cpu busses for all samples to be transferred, more samples over a certain limit may be worse. Next thing I come to think of is if the loaded instruments you use - creating a fresh instance in Sonar - have the same settings for streaming from disk, preload i memory or whatever. I would test freeze one synth at a time, and see which is inflicting the most. Next thing - any antivirus software and Sonar should be excluded there. I run no antivirus at all at daw - but my working machine I tried 5-6 different ones, and all create more problems than any virus I dealt with. As a test I would turn off antivirus completely - and that improve things look to exclude the Sonar process. And finally, different graphics libraries may have issues, and Sonar might use another than Reaper - look for graphics drivers updates. And as a test - choose the performance setting(Control panel - System somewhere) in Windows if that changes anything, it will look dull for a bit - but just to narrow down.
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ston
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/19 09:15:56
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precisionguided The overclock is the first thing I'd look at for troubleshooting too, but for the fact that it wasn't problematic in either logic or reaper. I honestly cannot see how you came to the conclusion that it will therefore not be problematic in Sonar. Your system configuration is highly atypical; it's so far removed from my own that I have no idea what the cause might be and I have no means to try to replicate any aspect of your system other than OS and Application. However, given that my rather vanilla (and lower-specced) system runs Sonar, FL Studio and Studio One with no issues whatsoever, and has also successfully run fully-fledged demos of almost all other DAWs, it doesn't seem unreasonable to think that some aspect of what is atypical about your system is causing an interoperability issue with Sonar. It's certain;y not a bad place to start looking. Out of interest, what have you tried changing thus far to try to get Sonar working?
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bitflipper
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/19 09:27:17
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Good advice from lfm ^^^ You've got one thing going for you for troubleshooting, which is another DAW that does not appear to exhibit the same symptoms. They key is going to be finding out what's different. And by "different" I don't mean that they're different DAWs, but something else that's different between them. That could be an antivirus program, for example. It could be re-scanning your .cwp file every time you make a change to it. Eliminate this possibility by *completely* disabling any antivirus software. If the problem goes away, configure the antivirus utility to excluded SONAR, the entire project directory tree, and the entire top-level folder where you keep your sample libraries. I really don't think that Reaper is vastly more efficient than SONAR. Bear in mind that 95% of code execution time is spent in software external to the DAW itself: plugins, the audio interface driver, and Windows libraries. Efficiency differences between DAWs are therefore going to be very small. CPU usage will vary drastically, however, with different effects and soft synths.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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tlw
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/19 10:02:29
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If Reaper runs OK I can't see any reason why Sonar won't. I run Sonar at between 48 and 64 sample buffers without any problem at all. I have never had to set latency over 256 irrespective of the audio interface used, and I only needed buffers that high on an old P4 system. All things being equal, an i7 quadcore should produce good results.
A few other things to look at on top of the other suggestions.
If any of the cpu sleep states (CE1, 2 etc) are enabled in the BIOS try switching them all off, also any "turbo" features (oddly enough this can result in the cpu running at "turbo" speed all the time, but the cpu fluctuating is problematic in a DAW). If Windows cpu core parking is enabled, it's best disabled via the registry (I'm away from my DAW at the moment so I can't confirm the exact registry edit needed, but google should find it for you). Also make sure in the Windows power settings that the cpu is set to 100% minimum and maximum and all USB ports are set to "never sleep". The USB ports will also need to be told not to sleep in their properties dialogue in Windows device manager.
I use an SSD for audio spooling myself, though it's not RAIDed. RAID 0 in itself shouldn't cause any issue with Sonar, I used RAID 0 for years when I spooled audio to HDDs. It does need a scrupulous backup strategy though - I had three Seagate Barracudas fail within 18 months, all three while under warranty.
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
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precisionguided
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/20 01:36:25
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Thanks for all the help, guys. I found out that VST3 Antares plugins (in this case, harmony engine evo) don't play well with Sonar X3 and Plat, so I had to replace each instance with the VST2 version. Wow that bug caused me a lot of headaches.
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brundlefly
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/20 01:44:40
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Too bad I edited out the suggestion in my original post to start stripping out plugins; could have gotten there sooner.
SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424 (24-bit, 48kHz) Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
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precisionguided
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/20 02:51:26
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Haha. Well at least I finally got there. Also, it would have been the last thing I'd wanted to do because I have way too many plugins to effectively troubleshoot. I just kinda found the solution by accident.
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precisionguided
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/20 02:51:26
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precisionguided
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/20 02:51:27
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Haha. Well at least I finally got there. Also, it would have been the last thing I'd wanted to do because I have way too many plugins to effectively troubleshoot. I just kinda found the solution by accident.
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ston
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Re: Needing excessive buffers for Playback and Recording
2015/03/20 08:30:39
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Nice 1 :-) Maybe there are some kinks in Sonar's VST3 implementation? Its release certainly didn't meet with the warmest reception from the smaller plugin developers... http://www.kvraudio.com/f...torder=asc&start=0 Oh dear! I think I have less than a handful of plugins in the VST3/ folder, but I use v2.4 variants of those (and for all others).
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