mudgel

Finally X1c was released and suddenly I could use Sonar. I still had to work through the drastic change coming from 8.5 and I really kicked and bucked against that transition.

Since then though I've had no major issue with Sonar. I'm now on a different PC but installed X1 with all the upgrades and all is fine with all the X series. I can't eplain why I had the problems with X1 that I had, but it is most likely that the combination of audio and video software ( I have a lot) I have on my PCs created some conflict that that particular version of Sonar exposed. I don't care now it's history.

That's not quite true though is it. Just a couple of weeks ago you had an issue, and posted a big complaint about having to postpone a project, and that how unhappy you were with Cakewalk's dealing of it.
 

Fireberd...I mirror your usage and upgrading rational.
 
I have seen some odd things in SPlat, but I can't imagine what I would see if I used 50% of it's capabilities or more.
 
X3e served me well...I am sure SPlat will too. I just can't speak to the other 95% of the application I don't use.
 
I am not throwing it under the bus...I just don't know, as I don't use it.

I'll spell it out this time then as you completely missed the point. It's called "maintenance'. If you think you can get away without reseting and updating stuff that's in fairy land even with bug free software... That's why the forums is littered with these common 'answers'.

I'm sorry that's too much hard work for you.

Or buy a tape recorder.

BobF

Anderton
The intent of this reply is to be educational, not confrontational.

If you want to educate, sit back and reread first.  You've missed the point entirely.  Yes, Sonar is literally decades in the making.

 
I always thought plural meant more than two, but whatever. And you missed my point, which is that during the 15 years of SONAR development, Windows and computing have changed dramatically so SONAR - like all Windows software - is constantly having new things thrown at the developers, who have to play catch-up. They work on the same product name over the years, but not the same code.
 
Operating systems and computers are a moving target. If you don't believe me, check the iTunes store for your iPhone and iPad after even little OS updates, and see how many apps you need to update. And those are, by and large, nowhere near as complex as a DAW.
 

The point about shine isn't how the OP is being reacted to.

 
Sorry for the misinterpretation, but that was not obvious from "jeez ... simple concepts folks.  You want people to see you as a shining example?  Simple.  Shine!" Grammatically speaking "you" referred to "folks," and since no one from Cakewalk has participated in this thread, I of course interpreted "folks" to mean the people posting in this thread.
 

It's the overall impression of the product.  If Sonar's rep was that of 'Shining Example', people would be less inclined to generalize it in a negative way when they encounter problems.  Want an example?  Fix the horrendous installation process.  It is sloppy and as such, leaves a less than stellar first impression.  Sonar is in ver 21 something.  And we're still apologizing for sloppy installation.

 
If someone was "apologizing" about the installation process, I must have missed it. People who are not having issues with it are simply pointing out they are not having issues. Several people have considered it smooth and easy. Several people have been upset about the way installation handles custom installs and lacks flexibility. Others just download the files and install manually. There are a variety of opinions about the installation process, but I don't see apologizing...just recounting of individual experiences. But as I said, I may have missed those apologies. I don't read every post in every thread.
 

That's one example.  You've seen the reports.  Lotsa' little stuff broken here and there.  It all adds up.

 
But that's the point. We ALL know there's little stuff broken here and there. But that's true of any DAW. So does that forum mean Cubase is "a piece of crap"? I don't think so. Is Logic, which runs on an operating system and hardware created by the company that created the program, a "piece of crap" because it has bugs? I don't think so. But that's just my opinion. I accept that most software has bugs, and the more complex the software and the number of platforms on which it is expected to run, the more bugs there will be.
 
The issue here is the extent of the problem the OP has, which has never been minimized or denied - I've gone out of my way to emphasize I believe he knows what he's doing and is experiencing genuine problems. He's not just reporting little things here and there; he's claiming showstoppers that cause near constant crashing. Realistically speaking, that's not really the norm based on what people in this forum post, and certainly not if based on the periodic surveys Cakewalk does of its user base.
 

So as a result, somebody posts about a bugfestapalooza ... you don't think people get frustrated?  You don't expect this kind of post to happen?

 
Anyone who has read the forums for any DAW or hardware interface since the dawn of computer recording would expect this kind of post on a regular basis.
 

You can point out 'independent experimenters' in both camps all you like, but the fact remains that there are far too many with negative experiences to take claims of 'shining example' or 'flagship' seriously.

 
I don't feel that anecdotal evidence from a forum is rigorous enough to draw definite conclusions, but it is enough to indicate that SONAR can be improved. But can all software be improved? Of course. The real question here is whether a problem inherent in SONAR could be causing James' issues. Of course that's possible, but if it can't be reproduced, then it's not possible to identify the source of the problem with confidence. As of now, statements that it's SONAR's fault or the fault of something else remain speculation. However, it's logical to think that if there was some problem inherent in SONAR that was causing constant crashing, there would be a whole lot more people mirroring James' experience. I think it's more likely a problem caused by an interaction of SONAR with...something. But again, we don't know whether SONAR or that "something" is to blame for the interaction.
 

I want Sonar to succeed.  I had another great experience yesterday mixing a small, 18 audio track project.  I like the plugs and I'm warming up to ProChannel.  It's a nice piece kit.  In the back of my mind though, I know the areas I have to avoid.  And I would really like to use those things. 
 
And yes, I'm still waiting for the next work-losing problem to show up.  It might not happen.  I hope it doesn't happen.  The final questions to ponder are, "Will I be surprised when it happens?" and "Should I be surprised when it happens?"
 
Make of that what you will.  I'm informing and sharing perspective for Cakewalk to use to make their products better.  I'm not looking for an education.

 
I do think there is merit to applying the scientific method to solving problems because I am interested in solving problems. I PREFACED the post with saying I was posting in a spirit of education, not confrontation. Only after that did I quote you. The post, like many of my posts here, address general concerns. I would think if someone posts about a problem they would want a solution to the problem, but if the person posting about the problem doesn't want help, that's their prerogative.
 

Here's a little education for you:  The toughest thing for company decision makers to learn is that they do in fact own the perception(s) others have of them and their products.  Telling people their perception is wrong won't make those perceptions change.  The actions you take and the experiences you create for your customers are the only ways to make perceptions what you want them to be.

 
I still don't recall anyone from Cakewalk coming in here and acting as you describe. The actions Cakewalk is taking are doing fixes on a monthly basis, and introducing a smaller number of features at a time to simplify the QA process and hopefully create a more stable platform. This has been stated repeatedly by the company as a goal. I think most rational people would agree that is not telling people their perceptions are wrong. They are taking concrete actions to improve the customer experience. You may complain they're not doing it fast enough, or fixing the issues that pertain to you personally, but you can't say they are not taking actions to solve issues.
 
But again, I don't recall anyone from Cakewalk coming in here and minimizing the problems people have. The people who are saying the perception that SONAR is awash with bugs and unuseable are the ones are disagree simply because that's not what they're experiencing. And as I pointed out, saying that SONAR is perfect because you don't experience problems is no more valid than saying that SONAR is a piece of crap because you do experience problems. That was the whole point of my post: There is merit to using the scientific method to isolate and identify problems. A sea of anecdotal evidence is interesting, but doesn't really move things forward.

Doktor Avalanche
I'll spell it out then. It's called "maintenance'. If you think you can get away without it that's in fairy land.

jatoth
I'm not talking about "maintenance". I'm talking about needing to uninstall-reinstall, reset-rescan, update, update, update. That is not "maintenance".

 
Yes it is. If you don't like doing maintenance go for a recording system that does not use VST's or hooks into other third party software, or stick with something ancient that works for you... or just don't use software. It is a fact of life otherwise
 

jatoth
Some of us DO see it as an issue. Some of us see it as BobF pointed out as SLOPPY. Just because you are not concerned, should our concerns be trivialized?

So apparently I'm not "concerned" and trivialising everything. Quote please?


I would say if you expect everything to be plug and play then you are trivializing.
I would also say if you aren't pointing to specific issues you are trivializing.
If you are tainting everything under one brush you are trivializing.
If you don't think other DAW's have similar issues then you are also trivializing.
If you are asking to "shine" you are trivializing.
If you don't think systems should be maintained you are trivializing (or you don't understand maintenance) .
 

Dok,  You want quotes?
 
These are ALL your replies.
 
"Don't expect the same behaviour with the same specs

or maybe he will just disappear into thin air because it seems he clearly thinks it is Sonar (so that's that - we can all go home).

From the sound of it the OP just hasn't had much experience in diagnosing PC issues

You should get over the idea about whether or not is Sonars fault.

FWIW - I don't experience your issues - go figure...

Without any real facts this thread has no balls to grip on.

Ultimately the discussion is about nothing and does nothing.

Well I wasted my time reading and writing in this thread.

Buy a tape recorder. You will still have to do maintenance but maybe it will be more fun for you.

I'm sorry that's too much hard work for you.

If you don't like doing maintenance go for a recording system that does not use VST's or hooks into other third party software, or stick with something ancient that works for you... or just don't use software."

Sounds very condescending and trivializing to me. Or were you actually trying to be helpful?
 
P.S. I already have a tape recorder, and back in the day I did have fun with it.

It's too tiring to go thru the quote-breaking process.  Hopefully it won't be necessary as I only have a couple of things to add.
 
First, it appears we have a disconnect based on differing assumptions about the intent of the OP.  Rather than assume the OP didn't know how to present specifics to get help, I have assumed his intent was to vent a high level of frustration.  I figure when he is ready to troubleshoot, he'll come back and break it down.  I could be wrong.
 
As far as actions to improve quality go, I see a big difference between establishing a framework that enables the improvements and actually delivery the improved quality.  I don't believe we've seen he latter, which happens to be the part that is most important to the users.
 
Lastly, I don't care what Cubase users experience.  I do have another DAW installed, but the business model is different, so while the other DAW is more stable than Sonar, the comparison isn't straight-forward.  At any rate, setting organizational and product goals based on a competitor's perceived level of success is pure folly IMO.
 
The last word is yours, Craig.  I think we're debating different points from different perspectives, but we probably are in agreement that we could be more productive with our time.
 
 

Anderton

BobF

Anderton
The intent of this reply is to be educational, not confrontational.

If you want to educate, sit back and reread first.  You've missed the point entirely.  Yes, Sonar is literally decades in the making.

 
I always thought plural meant more than two, but whatever. And you missed my point, which is that during the 15 years of SONAR development, Windows and computing have changed dramatically so SONAR - like all Windows software - is constantly having new things thrown at the developers, who have to play catch-up. They work on the same product name over the years, but not the same code.
 
Operating systems and computers are a moving target. If you don't believe me, check the iTunes store for your iPhone and iPad after even little OS updates, and see how many apps you need to update. And those are, by and large, nowhere near as complex as a DAW.
 

The point about shine isn't how the OP is being reacted to.

 
Sorry for the misinterpretation, but that was not obvious from "jeez ... simple concepts folks.  You want people to see you as a shining example?  Simple.  Shine!" Grammatically speaking "you" referred to "folks," and since no one from Cakewalk has participated in this thread, I of course interpreted "folks" to mean the people posting in this thread.
 

It's the overall impression of the product.  If Sonar's rep was that of 'Shining Example', people would be less inclined to generalize it in a negative way when they encounter problems.  Want an example?  Fix the horrendous installation process.  It is sloppy and as such, leaves a less than stellar first impression.  Sonar is in ver 21 something.  And we're still apologizing for sloppy installation.

 
If someone was "apologizing" about the installation process, I must have missed it. People who are not having issues with it are simply pointing out they are not having issues. Several people have considered it smooth and easy. Several people have been upset about the way installation handles custom installs and lacks flexibility. Others just download the files and install manually. There are a variety of opinions about the installation process, but I don't see apologizing...just recounting of individual experiences. But as I said, I may have missed those apologies. I don't read every post in every thread.
 

That's one example.  You've seen the reports.  Lotsa' little stuff broken here and there.  It all adds up.

 
But that's the point. We ALL know there's little stuff broken here and there. But that's true of any DAW. So does that forum mean Cubase is "a piece of crap"? I don't think so. Is Logic, which runs on an operating system and hardware created by the company that created the program, a "piece of crap" because it has bugs? I don't think so. But that's just my opinion. I accept that most software has bugs, and the more complex the software and the number of platforms on which it is expected to run, the more bugs there will be.
 
The issue here is the extent of the problem the OP has, which has never been minimized or denied - I've gone out of my way to emphasize I believe he knows what he's doing and is experiencing genuine problems. He's not just reporting little things here and there; he's claiming showstoppers that cause near constant crashing. Realistically speaking, that's not really the norm based on what people in this forum post, and certainly not if based on the periodic surveys Cakewalk does of its user base.
 

So as a result, somebody posts about a bugfestapalooza ... you don't think people get frustrated?  You don't expect this kind of post to happen?

 
Anyone who has read the forums for any DAW or hardware interface since the dawn of computer recording would expect this kind of post on a regular basis.
 

You can point out 'independent experimenters' in both camps all you like, but the fact remains that there are far too many with negative experiences to take claims of 'shining example' or 'flagship' seriously.

 
I don't feel that anecdotal evidence from a forum is rigorous enough to draw definite conclusions, but it is enough to indicate that SONAR can be improved. But can all software be improved? Of course. The real question here is whether a problem inherent in SONAR could be causing James' issues. Of course that's possible, but if it can't be reproduced, then it's not possible to identify the source of the problem with confidence. As of now, statements that it's SONAR's fault or the fault of something else remain speculation. However, it's logical to think that if there was some problem inherent in SONAR that was causing constant crashing, there would be a whole lot more people mirroring James' experience. I think it's more likely a problem caused by an interaction of SONAR with...something. But again, we don't know whether SONAR or that "something" is to blame for the interaction.
 

I want Sonar to succeed.  I had another great experience yesterday mixing a small, 18 audio track project.  I like the plugs and I'm warming up to ProChannel.  It's a nice piece kit.  In the back of my mind though, I know the areas I have to avoid.  And I would really like to use those things. 
 
And yes, I'm still waiting for the next work-losing problem to show up.  It might not happen.  I hope it doesn't happen.  The final questions to ponder are, "Will I be surprised when it happens?" and "Should I be surprised when it happens?"
 
Make of that what you will.  I'm informing and sharing perspective for Cakewalk to use to make their products better.  I'm not looking for an education.

 
I do think there is merit to applying the scientific method to solving problems because I am interested in solving problems. I PREFACED the post with saying I was posting in a spirit of education, not confrontation. Only after that did I quote you. The post, like many of my posts here, address general concerns. I would think if someone posts about a problem they would want a solution to the problem, but if the person posting about the problem doesn't want help, that's their prerogative.
 

Here's a little education for you:  The toughest thing for company decision makers to learn is that they do in fact own the perception(s) others have of them and their products.  Telling people their perception is wrong won't make those perceptions change.  The actions you take and the experiences you create for your customers are the only ways to make perceptions what you want them to be.

 
I still don't recall anyone from Cakewalk coming in here and acting as you describe. The actions Cakewalk is taking are doing fixes on a monthly basis, and introducing a smaller number of features at a time to simplify the QA process and hopefully create a more stable platform. This has been stated repeatedly by the company as a goal. I think most rational people would agree that is not telling people their perceptions are wrong. They are taking concrete actions to improve the customer experience. You may complain they're not doing it fast enough, or fixing the issues that pertain to you personally, but you can't say they are not taking actions to solve issues.
 
But again, I don't recall anyone from Cakewalk coming in here and minimizing the problems people have. The people who are saying the perception that SONAR is awash with bugs and unuseable are the ones are disagree simply because that's not what they're experiencing. And as I pointed out, saying that SONAR is perfect because you don't experience problems is no more valid than saying that SONAR is a piece of crap because you do experience problems. That was the whole point of my post: There is merit to using the scientific method to isolate and identify problems. A sea of anecdotal evidence is interesting, but doesn't really move things forward.

wow.. this thread is a disappointing step down from the usual productive / helpful threads found in this great forum.
 
Anyway, in response to the OP, I'll add that I've noticed a decrease in stability since going from X3e to Platinum.  I'm not a pro, so it hasn't impacted me to the point where I've attempted to isolate it, however the exact same projects using the exact same plugins, using the same RME driver & video driver, same config settings, etc.. I was using in X3e have crash occasionally in platinum - whereas I don't think I ever experienced similar behavior in X3e. 

Doktor Avalanche
Well it's a very fraustrating thread to read. No real facts anywhere apart from the driver error. We can't go down that path or explore other options as the OP isn't interested in discussing or trying to resolve the issue here. Without any real facts this thread has no balls to grip on.

It then becomes a discussion about how people 'feel' rather than hard facts which is apparently the OP's intention. A complete nowhere thread what is the point... It won't fix any problems or locate any bugs if they exist.. Hearsay layered upon hearsay. Choose you camp.. Fanboy or sceptic? Red pill or blue pill... Whatever it is make sure you paint a big white line in between... Ultimately the discussion is about nothing and does nothing.

You can see how many religions start out this way..

kitekrazy1
Comment unnecessary and offensive. Mods please remove that comment.

 

 
Offensive specifically to who? The "many religions" church?

I edited it out for you anyway, thanks for pasting the quote, writing it in big capital letters so that everybody can see and giving me a chance to paste it again...


Have a nice day.