Sonar Platinum verdict: bugfestapalooza

Well at least I know you are not a troll.  What 5 VSTs are you using?

jamesyoyo
I am writing an orchestral piece: 35 midi tracks, 10 outputs, 5 vsts and nothing bounced down.
This piece of crap version has now crashed on me 24 times since I installed it last week. Always loses my audio driver.
When I have more than 7 tracks together in PRV it lags when moving notes in a most sluggish and pain in the ass way.
It doesn't paste right either: sometimes it works,sometimes not. No rhyme nor reason to it.
Anyone else looking to get their money back?

 
If you've been following these forums, it's clear you're not having a typical experience. Unfortunately you've given no system information that could help with diagnostics, however, there is a clue: "Always loses my audio driver." I suspect the problem lies somewhere in the path between SONAR and the audio output. It could also relate to the graphics driver, or the existence of an HD Audio Codec installed by a graphics card...RAM gone bad...actually there are multiple possibilities.
 
The only reason I'm trying to draw your attention away from SONAR is because using a few dozen MIDI tracks with a reasonable number of virtual instruments is a common scenario for many users, and SONAR works for them. So it's likely there's some kind of interaction going on in your system that once solved, will provide the expected level of performance.
 
However, troubleshooting via forum is likely to be very inefficient because of the lag time in asking follow-up questions. I presume your issue isn't obvious or you would have fixed it by now. Free phone support is part of the Platinum package, and that would be a good place to start.
 
Also, check out Obedia. I have a friend who was getting endless crashes with Cubase and Pro Tools, even with a custom computer supposedly configured for Cubase. He switched to SONAR and the performance was much better. But he still needed to wrap up Cubase projects, which put him back to square 1. The tech from Obedia did a remote desktop session, and uncovered several computer problems mere mortals would likely not find, as well as problems just waiting to happen. The bottom line is after his Obedia session, the crashes were gone from Cubase and SONAR worked perfectly. He stayed with SONAR, though; he liked it better.  The moral of the story is sometimes you need to take your car to a mechanic...
 
Incidentally this was the same tech who went through my system before I re-located to Nashville, and since installing Platinum I've had only one freeze (no crashes). That was caused by deleting the REmatrix Solo user IR file, then opening a SONAR project where REmatrix Solo went insane trying to find the IR files I used in the project. 

Not necessarily. They may have different library dependencies or some visual basic issue, that's often been the root of "It works in X3 but not Platinum" problems. Or one program might reveal issues that don't affect another program, like in the example of Cubase crashing much more than SONAR but the fix solving the Cubase problem.
 
This is why I recommend contacting support. I am not a newbie by any stretch; I've been working with computers for 40 years (I worked with the company that supplied the computer for Roger Nichols' "Wendel" drum machine - 8K RAM cards! Wow!) and computer-based recording for 30 years, and fixed a lot of problems along the way. But support people see more issues in a day than people like you or me see in a year, and that builds up quite a database of knowledge. Platinum has been totally solid for me and many, if not most, others so it's hard for me to imagine there's some inherent problem in the software. 
 
 

jamesyoyo
Thanks, Craig, for your response.
 
But I am not a newbie to this nor is my system new either. I run X3 with little to no issues. In fact, since I wrote the original post my orchestral masterpiece in Platinum crashed and I have not been able to open neither the last saved version nor the autosaved copy. Rebooted computer and still same thing. So I try to open it in X3....no problem! Ergo onw must conclude that there is something inherently buggy with the Platinum version of the software.

Not tryimg to minimize your experience but that is not necessarily a logical conclusion. If it were inherently buggy on the level you complain of, we would be flooded with posts similar to yours. Even the people who are not thrilled with Platinum tend to have very specific issues amd complaints that can be replicated.  Not saying you are doing something wrong,  but I think it's fair to say your experience is atypical and your problems are simply confirmation of your issue (whatever it may be)  in lieau of it being a broad inherent issue.
 
 

Are the 7 tracks used in PRV are from both plugins?  32 bit plugins use more resources in a 64 bit system because they are bridged.

I can offer to assist you with determining what is at the core of the issues you are having, and others in the forum would also assist.
 
There ARE bugs in Sonar Platinum, and there always will be.  The thing that a couple of folks said above is that because the issues you are having are not reported by anybody else, it is highly likely that whatever IS going on with your system is some weird thing that is repeatedly triggered by whatever settings or interactions, or maintenance, or plugins, or Sonar Platinum features, or Sonar Platinum functionality interacting with some aspect of your system in a manor that is different than what was taking place between X3e and the same system and same plugins.
 
I DO believe we can get to the bottom of this, if you can engage with us in doing some examination of your system itself, as well as what steps you are in the middle of performing when your issues strike.
 
If you look at the bottom of my post, or some of the other members, you will see I have added my computer system and environment specs to my forum profile's Signature and Comment section.  It would help folks for this issue and any future issues you may post about, if you too were to take a couple minutes to edit your forum profile to add the info about your system.
 
You can get to that section of your profile by clicking up at the top right of this page on the user_control_section, then clicking on the left of the subsequent window on the Signature and Comment tab, then entering your specs, also making sure to check the box below that section that tells the forum software to Always Attach Signature to All Posts (or however the exact wording of that is).
 
Additionally, I have a few questions for you:
 
1.  What driver mode are you running in Sonar?
2.  Is your Windows up to current maintenance levels?
3.  Have you tried opening the failing project in Sonar's 'Safe Mode', and skipping the load of any of your 32-bit plugins?  (just for diagnostic purposes, to try to see if them being present in Platinum is causing problems - after testing that, close out without saving project)
4.  Have you checked Sonar Preferences between X3e's settings and Platinum's?  (just wondering if something hadn't transferred properly)
5.  Have you considered doing BOTH a Reset and a Full Scan of your plugins?  (sometimes that clears up weird plugin problems with instability and other manifestations)
 
Thanks - we'll do our best to help get this figured out with you  :)
 
Bob Bone
 

The audio driver thing is interesting.  When I load patches into Vienna instruments, my audio engine always gets turned off. Luckily, I can just click the icon to restart it and everything's fine.
 
I have also had issues in which multiple virtual instruments will kill my audio.  Freezing or deleting one fixes the problem.  Oddly, it is not always the same number of VIs: sometimes  more than 7 is a problem, sometimes moire than 14, etc.
 
I am only mentioning this because their may be some weird issues related to VIs that you may uncover with support.
 
Note that I am running an older version of Sonar.  This is just oine small bit of data that may or may not help.

On another thread similar to yours I remember a weird thing the OP noticed by accident.
He runs Win 8.1 and somehow, when checking the properties of the Sonar Platinum shortcut, he noticed it was set to run in compatability mode for Win 8, not 8.1. He got rid of that and hasn't had any crashes since.
May or not pertain to you but I thought it was worth mentioning.

mudgel
I always quarantine a new version by installing on a separate partition set up just for that purpose so it doesn't effect any other programs. As I test it more and more then will come a time when I go live and place it on my normal drive along with my other Sonar versions. Even then I don't use it for mission critical work until I'm satisfied that it's stable in my environment.

And you now do this every month ?  Or do you skip versions ?
 
I agree with your strategy, but it looks like a full time job now that a new release comes out every month.

Jamesyoyo - What type of system spec do you have - Audio card / ext box via usb,firewire? Video Card? Processor? Ram?  Windows version if PC? Is it a laptop? 
 
If a laptop it could be an issue with dual video card - On my laptop there are 2.An intel and an Nvidia. You have to watch which one an app uses as default and switch if necessary. To nvidia preferably.
 
Audio Card / ext audio I/O box. Driver issues are common. Just because they not causing issues with X3 I assume doesnt mean they wont with Platinum.  Can you try a different card, maybe the built in card your system has, see if that falls over.
 
Have you scanned your system properly for viruses, malware, rootkits etc - try avast it has a very nice boot scan pre windows load option. Also Malwarebytes. 
 

jatoth

Anderton
FYI here's a great example of what I mean: http://forum.cakewalk.com/Solved-AAS-Ultra-Analog-Synths-crash-Platinum-m3201593.aspx#3201593
 
The user says that the AAS synths crash Platinum but they worked in previous versions. The issue was solved, and it was not related to Platinum.

It's real easy in these forums to blame anything/everything other than Platinum.

 
It's important to differentiate between a reproducible bug that can be reliably traced back to a flaw within Platinum, and a general statement that "Platinum crashes all the time." It's clear Platinum doesn't crash all the time, or Jamesyoyo's thread would have a lot more company and people would be piling on here detailing their "crashing all the time" problems. Previous threads that did complain about SONAR "crashing all the time" were generally resolved through troubleshooting that uncovered either pilot error or hardware/software interaction problems.
 

The ugly truth is, if it worked prior to Platinum, and Platinum changed it's VST scan process, and now the same installed VSTs crash the system, then the ramifications of Platinum's scan process changes were not tested thoroughly.

No. It's unreasonable to expect Cakewalk to test Platinum with a wide variety of bad installations to see what happens. The source of the problem wasn't SONAR's scanning process, the problem was multiple installations of the same plug-in in multiple folders. That's wrong from the gitgo. The user was lucky that it worked okay in X3 but the fact is the scanning process continues to be improved in several ways (e.g., from what I understand it now works in Vista, which it didn't in X3). If the scanning process is more rigorous, it's reasonable that it would be less tolerant of user-created problems. 
 

Now, should it be the user's responsibility to flush out those ramifications?
Only if Cakewalk makes us aware of the changes to VST scanning, and warns us to test all of our VSTs because some may not work properly.

 
 
It's up to the user, not Cakewalk, to install plug-ins correctly; when the plug-in WAS installed correctly, the "problem" was solved. I wouldn't expect Cakewalk to add a disclaimer that says "If you've installed something incorrectly, it's more likely that SONAR will catch it now because the scanning process is more rigorous." Cakewalk wouldn't know that was the case unless their QA team installed something incorrectly on purpose, tested it, happened to choose the right "wrong" installation, didn't reset/re-scan, and then found out that the incorrect installation caused a particular problem.  
 
Different programs scan differently, and scan routines change over time. Anyone who has used multiple DAWs will tell you that some programs will install plug-ins that other programs won't install and vice-versa. 
 

I've had a number of problems recently, too.   Specifically with "paste", as mentioned in the OP, and with medium sized projects that are growing in midi clip numbers  Haven't had crashes, but have had several "freezes" ("Sonar is not responding ....).    And, just today, one freeze that was captured, unfortunately, in the autosave backup ... not pretty.    Using Platinum, latest version.  

williamcopper
And moderators, especially you volunteers:  PLEASE don't try so hard to minimize every problem report.   Yes, some are exaggerated, but most of us wouldn't bother if it weren't real.

I guess that sometimes there is at least the impression that a problem report is being marginalized, but I think in this case, and most others, folks are simply trying to get more information - so that they might offer suggestions - and attempting to calm the waters a bit.

If a problem is directly related to a Sonar software bug then that's one thing. But DAWs are complex beasts, and if you start with the assumption that it is a Sonar problem, and it isn't a Sonar problem, then you spend valuable time chasing the wrong path.

williamcopper
I've had a number of problems recently, too.   Specifically with "paste", as mentioned in the OP, and with medium sized projects that are growing in midi clip numbers  Haven't had crashes, but have had several "freezes" ("Sonar is not responding ....).    And, just today, one freeze that was captured, unfortunately, in the autosave backup ... not pretty.    Using Platinum, latest version.  

I'm sorry to contribute to the further hijacking of this thread, but...
 
You really need to document this claim about "too many MIDI clips" in away that makes it reproducible by others. I find no references to "too many MIDI clips" anywhere in the forum history other than your recent posts, except for one several years ago that actually turned out to be "too many soft synths " for the chosen buffer size and available processing power.
 
I've made the effort to experiment with some fairly large MIDI projects, destructively splitting every track at measures so that there are hundreds of clips in the project, and I can't reproduce any problems. I've even split some of those tracks up further, giving every note number its own take lane (!), and still didn't see a problem.
 
Whatever problems you might be experiencing in large MIDI/soft synth projects, I think the MIDI clip count is a red herring. I would sooner suspect interoperability problems with Kontakt which has previously been implicated in a number of instability issues and assorted unexpected behavior.
 
And regarding your comment about minimizing problem reports, given the historically high rate of problem reports (both formal and informal) turning out not to be SONAR bugs, it only makes sense to ask users to come up with reproducible steps for replicating a problem, both to ensure it's not a simple procedural problem or interoperability issue with some third-party software/hardware, and to give the Bakers half a chance of troubleshooting and fixing it.