gmp
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Quantize sometimes erases notes
I was quantizing a drum track and sometimes it erased the notes that I selected and quantized. It was pretty rare, but I saved a file that does it every time right at beat 1 of bar 66. There 2 notes in the bass clef - C and A and one note in the treble clef - E. When I select all 3 notes, the lower 2 notes disappear and the upper one remains is is correctly quantized. I've tried quantizing to 1/4 1/8 1/16 with the same results. My original track has a drum map, so I created a new midi track with no drum map and copied the data to it and got the same results in that track also. I looked at the event list and see nothing unusual. It also does this in the piano roll view. I uploaded the CWP file named QUANTIZE ERASES.cwp to this link below. It's only 1 midi track. https://onedrive.live.com...d=c256e2dae26b22a5!105Please try this and see if you get the same result, before I turn in a bug report.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/05 13:06:51
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Yes, the notes were being deleted initially.
Bounce the whole track to one contiguous clip and the Quantize works.
I don't know why this is happening but the bounce cures it
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vladasyn
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/05 13:11:42
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Quantize never does what it supposed to, only making everything worse. I gave up using it many years ago.
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konradh
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/05 13:16:29
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UPDATE: OK, I opened your file and quantized the Superior Drummer track. Quantizing at 1/16th worked fine. Quantizing at 1/8 put notes under each other because two 16ths got moved to the same 1/8 slot. So, quantizing at 1/8 made it appear notes were disappearing, but they were actually just stacked on top of each other. *** Is the quantization putting two notes on top of each other so it seems one disappeared? For the record, I quantize pretty much everything.
post edited by konradh - 2015/04/05 13:23:39
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Anderton
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/05 13:23:55
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vladasyn
Quantize never does what it supposed to, only making everything worse. I gave up using it many years ago.
Not sure what you mean. If you can describe the problem, there's probably a solution.
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gmp
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/05 14:04:32
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konradh
UPDATE: OK, I opened your file and quantized the Superior Drummer track. Quantizing at 1/16th worked fine. Quantizing at 1/8 put notes under each other because two 16ths got moved to the same 1/8 slot. So, quantizing at 1/8 made it appear notes were disappearing, but they were actually just stacked on top of each other.
***
Is the quantization putting two notes on top of each other so it seems one disappeared?
For the record, I quantize pretty much everything.
Thanks for your help. The 2nd poster Jonesey was able to reproduce it. This is a pretty rare occurance, so you have to go to bar 66 and in the time ruler only select the notes close to beat 1 bar 66. There are only 3 notes, then choose quantize and see what happens. If you're in the staff view or piano roll view you actually see the notes disappear, they're not stacked. Thanks for trying it, please try it once more.
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bvideo
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/05 15:25:36
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There's a reason those notes disappear. The underlying clip boundary structure is what causes it. And that's why bouncing fixes it.
The clip that holds those two bass clef notes that play "at" measure 66 actually ends at the end of the previous measure. I.e. the only reason those notes show at all is that they start just before the end of the clip. Quantizing them moves them past the end of the clip, so they are now out of the clip, and gone. Moving the clip boundary a little later before quantize allows them to stay after quantize.
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bvideo
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/05 16:06:01
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There's a related strangeness, though. That clip still had more notes beyond the clip boundary. They show up if you drag the clip boundary far enough. But quantizing with the original clip boundary then dragging the clip boundary shows that some notes beyond the original end are still there, while others have disappeared. Haven't figured out how to predict yet, but don't depend on notes outside a clip boundary being preserved.
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gmp
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/05 23:39:43
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vladasyn
Quantize never does what it supposed to, only making everything worse. I gave up using it many years ago.
I only quantize drums and percussion. There are a few things you have to do to insure it works without messing things up. ON a drum track look at it in the staff view and if 16th notes are the fastest notes you've played then start at the last bar and if there's a ritard, go back until you get to regular time and look for 16th notes. Sometimes you'll find some that are wrong, in most cases quantizing to 8th notes for that spot will fix the error. I have CAL macros setup where I hit a hot key and it quantizes to 1/4 1/8 1/16 etc. With Superior drummer for some reason the midi notes tend to be very slightly early and sometimes I need to move the whole track back in the piano roll view by selecting all the notes and moving them very slightly to the right. Then there are few or no quantize errors.
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gmp
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/05 23:44:43
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Bristol_Jonesey
Yes, the notes were being deleted initially.
Bounce the whole track to one contiguous clip and the Quantize works.
I don't know why this is happening but the bounce cures it
Thanks you have an easy workaround, which I'll use until they fix this. I turned in a bug report and gave them your workaround Thanks for all your help,
Gerry Peters Midi Magic Studio http://gprecordingstudio.com/ Album Productions and Songwriter Resources Cakewalk By Bandlab, Platinum 64 + 32 bit, Studiocat AsRock Z97 motherboard, Haswell CPU 4790k @ 4.4GHz, RAM 16GB DDR3/1600, Windows 10 Pro all updates including optional, MOTU AVB Ultralite sound card/Midi interface/Dig mixer, onboard Video HD4600. Midisport 2x2 midi interface, Vienna Instruments, Ivory II piano, Komplete 9, Superior drummer. 5 HD's - OS drive 250GB SSD, Samples drive 1 500GB SSD, 3 data HDs - total of 6.5T
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gmp
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/05 23:48:57
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bvideo
There's a related strangeness, though. That clip still had more notes beyond the clip boundary. They show up if you drag the clip boundary far enough. But quantizing with the original clip boundary then dragging the clip boundary shows that some notes beyond the original end are still there, while others have disappeared. Haven't figured out how to predict yet, but don't depend on notes outside a clip boundary being preserved.
I think this is the effect of me checking "non-destructive midi editing". It seems to only half work now, but in the past you could do slip editing and retrieve some lost notes that got erased with the autopunch. Now if you're lucky you can retrieve some notes, but not all
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bvideo
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/06 09:53:30
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I don't think it's a bug (the OP). As I said in post #7 the notes were moved outside the clip.
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gmp
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/06 10:58:09
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bvideo
I don't think it's a bug (the OP). As I said in post #7 the notes were moved outside the clip.
It's clearly a bug. I've been using quantize for decades with every Cakewalk product since DOS. THis has never once happened until now. And it didn't just happen one time, it happened several times. I created the track by recording until I got to a spot where I didn't like what I did. I stopped, rewound a little to find where I wanted to resume and set up autopunch from there to the end of the song. I did that multiple times and it created many clips.
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brundlefly
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/06 12:49:32
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There does seem to be an issue in this case as one of the "lost" notes is not recoverable by extending the slip-edit boundary, but I'm not sure that's a totally new issue. I'd have to search but I think it's come up before. I avoid Non-destructive MIDI Editing mode because it can be quite destructive - even if only temporarily - and unintuitive in this way.
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gmp
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/06 13:27:49
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brundlefly
There does seem to be an issue in this case as one of the "lost" notes is not recoverable by extending the slip-edit boundary, but I'm not sure that's a totally new issue. I'd have to search but I think it's come up before. I avoid Non-destructive MIDI Editing mode because it can be quite destructive - even if only temporarily - and unintuitive in this way.
Let me know if you find anything in your search. It seems in the past non-destructive midi editing actually worked and if I punched in a spot, that if there was a problem I could use slip editing to fix it. Yet now it seems unreliable. How has it been destructive for you and why do you avoid it? What other experiences have you had with it? Thanks for all your insight,
Gerry Peters Midi Magic Studio http://gprecordingstudio.com/ Album Productions and Songwriter Resources Cakewalk By Bandlab, Platinum 64 + 32 bit, Studiocat AsRock Z97 motherboard, Haswell CPU 4790k @ 4.4GHz, RAM 16GB DDR3/1600, Windows 10 Pro all updates including optional, MOTU AVB Ultralite sound card/Midi interface/Dig mixer, onboard Video HD4600. Midisport 2x2 midi interface, Vienna Instruments, Ivory II piano, Komplete 9, Superior drummer. 5 HD's - OS drive 250GB SSD, Samples drive 1 500GB SSD, 3 data HDs - total of 6.5T
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brundlefly
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/06 14:39:52
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It's all in how you define "destructive". One key effect of NDME is that when you split a clip it effectively creates two copies of the data and slip-edits both to hide the overlapping parts. This means that notes crossing the boundary are effectively truncated at the slip-edit point. For anything other than drums, this is audibly "destructive" in that you lose the full duration of such notes. In contrast, if you split a clip with NDME disabled, the result is two partially overlapping clips with the boundary of the first one ending at the original duration of the longest note that crossed the chosen split point. To me, this is less "destructive", and is usually the behavior I want want when I split a MIDI clip. I just tested your project in some earlier versions, and found that quantizing in X2 and earlier with NDME enabled resulted in the clip's end boundary being extended to restore the original duration of the quantized notes before the slip editing was applied. This is also what happens in all versions when NDME is not enabled. But in X3e as well as Platinum when NDME is enabled the notes get quantized later without the boundary being extended, and one of them is not recoverable. So it appears this got broken some time in X3.
post edited by brundlefly - 2015/04/06 17:12:12
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bvideo
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/06 16:44:59
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brundlefly
...
In contrast, if you split a clip without NDME disabled, the result is two partially overlapping clips with the boundary of the first one ending at the original duration of the longest note that crossed the chosen split point. To me, this is less "destructive", and is usually the behavior I want want when I split a MIDI clip.
So can the resulting clips not be slip edited to expose unmodified data? Otherwise notes that start while that longest note is running could suddenly show up in the earlier clip. (Or maybe you meant "with NDME disabled"?) brundlefly
I just tested your project in some earlier versions, and found that quantizing in X2 and earlier with NDME enabled resulted in the clip's end boundary being extended to restore the original duration of the quantized notes before the slip editing was applied. This is also what happens in all versions when NDME is not enabled.
...
In this X2 scenario, when the clip's end boundary gets extended by quantize, does it uncover other notes that may have started just after the unextended clip boundary, i.e. while the quantized notes at the end were running? Or did it effectively "trim" the clip so that there aren't any new notes to see by slip-editing?
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brundlefly
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/06 17:28:34
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Yes, I meant "with NDME disabled" in the second paragraph. I fouled up and changed enabled to disabled when I was quickly proof-reading, not noticing that it was preceeded by "without".
And, yes, I observed that quantizing in X2 and earlier did effectively apply trimming to notes not originally visible in the slip-edited clip, regardless of the status of NDME. This probably isn't ideal, either.
And I think I was wrong about X3 and Platinum working as expected with NDME disabled; the clip boundary doesn't get extended and the one note is still lost in that case.
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bvideo
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/06 18:38:56
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You dig deep figuring these things out, Dave (brundlefly). Gotta hand it to you!
So I wonder what CW intended to change in these scenarios. Seems like there are strange compromises to be made.
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bvideo
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/06 19:45:30
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Tried X2 a bit. With NDME enabled: - Split a clip that had three notes near the split point, which was at a measure boundary. So two clips resulted, touching on one lane. I moved the 2nd clip down to another track for future reference. The two clips can be slipped to show all the notes from the original clip.
- The clip has two notes that originally crossed the split boundary and a third that started on the split boundary. In the first clip of the split, the two notes appear truncated, the third one is no longer showing. The third note shows at the start of the 2nd split clip.
- Quantized (the first clip). The clip lengthened, as brundlefly said, to show the ends of both notes near the end of the first split clip. The notes moved properly. The 2nd note now starts beyond where the clip boundary was, namely at the new measure. Maybe this is what gmp expected.
- Then I slip edited that clip to look for the third note that used to be aligned at the measure boundary before the split. It was gone! But other notes beyond it were still there, though they had not been quantized. This is a little weird.
Then I disabled NDME and started down the same path.This time, splitting the clip made overlapping clips, just as brundlefly says. On two lanes. Slip editing the clips showed that there was no longer any hidden data. Of the three notes in question, two stayed with the first clip and extended the clip, and the third note started the 2nd clip, as expected. Then quantize extended the first clip further. I suppose this is all as originally intended and expected. As brundlefly points out, this probably got broken in X3. I'll get to X3 a little later.
post edited by bvideo - 2015/04/06 20:06:10
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bvideo
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Re: Quantize sometimes erases notes
2015/04/06 20:34:44
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Tried X3 a bit, using the same clip as with X2 above. With NDME enabled:- As before, split a clip that had three notes near the split point, which was at a measure boundary. So two clips resulted, touching on one lane. I moved the 2nd clip down to another track for future reference. The two clips can be slipped to show all the notes from the original clip.
- The clip has two notes that originally crossed the split boundary and a third that started on the split boundary. In the first clip of the split, the two notes appear truncated, the third one is no longer showing. The third note shows at the start of the 2nd split clip. (As in X2).
- Quantized (the first clip) One of the two notes disappeared. Quantize would have moved it to the place where the clip ended, but the clip did not extend as it did in X2. This is acting like the project from the OP.
- Then I slip-edited that clip to see what was left. some of the notes were still there, not quantized. However, two notes were missing: the one that got quantized out of the clip and the one that was formerly at the split boundary.
This is probably similar to what happened with the OP project. Then I disabled NDME and started down the same path. The split extended the first part, and made overlapping clips, but did not create a 2nd lane. The OP project didn't seem to have the right lane structure either. Quantize did not extend the clip. One of the two notes appeared truncated, though its properties gave the original length. And slip editing revealed the rest of the note. There are probably a lot of details I left out, but it's pretty clear there were major happenings from X2 to X3. There was a note disappearance in X2, but X3 seems not to make as much sense. I became very curious about this after Dave's exhibit of X2 vs X3. I wondered what would happen to a non-destructively split-then-quantized clip when the clip lengthened and visible notes would be quantized to become aligned with, or overlap, invisible notes. Turns out, in X2 they deleted the invisible note that would have been exposed by the quantizing operation. In X3 they do clip lengthening differently, leave overlapping clips in one lane, and (some) formerly visible notes get deleted, not just made invisible.
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