Helpful ReplyAnybody using a RAM Disk?

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5MilesHigh
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2015/04/06 20:41:28 (permalink)

Anybody using a RAM Disk?

I did a quick search and didn't see anything recent. I just setup my MSI RAM disk (16GB/1.5GB) since I haven't seen anything pull more than 10 GB. I've noticed that things are much more responsive, probably due to the tmp files being on RAM now (and way faster than my SSD). 
 
Are there downsides?
It seems they would just be to tmp and caches, so no loss there. It also seemed to really help my video cards.
 
Initially, I'm like really surprised about how much better things work. I'm pretty sure even a small RD would work wonders, but the RAM is just sitting there anyway.
 
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Dyonight
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Re: Anybody using a RAM Disk? 2015/04/06 21:31:37 (permalink)
Also interested to know and also interested to know what you put in it.
 
Sonar cache? windows page file? Anything else?
 
How much do you feel is enough?

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#2
5MilesHigh
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Re: Anybody using a RAM Disk? 2015/04/06 22:22:27 (permalink)
Putting a page file in a RAM disk pretty much defeats the purpose. If you've got the RAM there is no reason to page. Now for all those tmp files, well file access is way better than with even an SSD. And there are lots of tmp files floating about these days. 
Just thought I'd ask and see if it is real.
I haven't much played with RAM disks since Atari days, but saw and enabled it.  The RAM wasn't being used anyway.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Anybody using a RAM Disk? 2015/04/06 22:29:45 (permalink)
That's so funny because I had not heard that term since my Atari days. When I saw the thread title I thought someone had either fallen through a time warp or it was a typo :) 
I remember how fast things worked but it all was lost when you shut down. I always loaded Dr T KCS into RAM Disk. 

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#4
LJB
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Re: Anybody using a RAM Disk? 2015/04/07 02:37:19 (permalink)
This sounds very interesting though I know very little about it. Are there any how to's about it somewhere?
 
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nebukenazar
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Re: Anybody using a RAM Disk? 2015/04/07 02:47:08 (permalink)
i have 2 SSD disk (240GB and 90GB) And also 2 harddisk (1TB and 3TB) i installed windows and Sonar in 240GB SSD
16GB page file (i have 16GB ram) and my frequently used program cacheis in 90GB SSD
1TB harddisk for vsti and other programs
3TB backup and old projects.

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Dyonight
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Re: Anybody using a RAM Disk? 2015/04/07 10:04:37 (permalink)
I think I don't understand cache that much...
 
I think windows cache is the pagefile
 
Sonar is pretty easy to setup.
 
Is there other cache settings that benefit from being moved to a faster storage?
 
How do I set them up?
 
Regarding windows pagefile, I have read people saying it's safe to remove it completely (I have 16GB of ram,most of it never got used), other says it's best to leave something cause some programs NEED one, other tells to let windows take care of it... I understand that it put stress on ssd so I tend to send it to my bigger mechanical drive, not sure how it affect performances. I'm on windows 7 x64 by the way.

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SilkTone
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Re: Anybody using a RAM Disk? 2015/04/07 11:27:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Mitch_I 2015/04/13 20:03:12
Dyonight
I think I don't understand cache that much...
 
I think windows cache is the pagefile



There are many types of caches, even in the same OS. One important one in the case of Sonar would the be the disk cache. MD (magnetic, or non-SSD disks) are actually very slow. If there was no disk cache, things would run painfully slow. A cache can hide the slow disk issues from the user by temporarily "writing" to RAM, and then stream the data to the disk in the background afterwards. Or in the case of reading, start reading the next blocks of data ahead of time into RAM in case that is what the program was planning to do next, which is very often the case.
 
MD access times are especially bad, something like 10ms. SSD access times are super fast in comparison, something like 0.02ms. That makes a huge difference when reading lots of small blocks of data at random locations (say, a sampler loading lots of different samples into memory).
 
A pagefile is a different kind of cache. Applications use virtual memory, which means the OS can give an application all the memory it asked for, even if you don't have that much RAM available. So if a new application asks for memory but the RAM is filled, the OS will save the memory from another application (or even the same application) that hasn't used it recently to disk (into the pagefile). Then later when that other application tries to do something with the memory that is now saved to pagefile, the OS will first save yet another application's memory to the pagefile, and then load the requested memory into the freed RAM and let the application continue. It's a sort of musical chairs with memory.
 
So that is why putting a pagefile into a RAM disk defeats the purpose, because now you have less RAM available for applications, requiring the pagefile to be used sooner.

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#8
Dyonight
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Re: Anybody using a RAM Disk? 2015/04/07 18:00:45 (permalink)
Good explanation thanks!
 
When you talk of "disk cache" I understand physical faster memory on the actual drive. Is there a way to virtually boost this hardware cache with a ramdisk or something? Is it worth it?

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#9
tlw
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Re: Anybody using a RAM Disk? 2015/04/07 18:22:00 (permalink)
Caching can get very complicated very quickly....

HDDs have their own (built in hardware) RAM for temporary caching purposes and helps in giving faster write times for small files, but the size of audio files (especially multiple files being spooled at the same time) rapidly fills that up.

Windows itself operates a cache system where data an application wishes to store to disk is held in RAM by Windows until there is enough of a break in other activity for Windows to actually send the data to a disk. This is usually of the order of milliseconds or a very few seconds at most, and is why sometimes an application will repost a successful safe to the user but if followed by an immediate Windows blue screen the data is lost.

By default Sonar bypasses the Windows caching system. This is partly because it avoids the problem that if Sonar or Windows crashed before data is actually written to disk and Windows caching were active the audio data would be lost. Though in practice that kind of situation generally results in corrupt data or Windows not even realising the data is there on the drive as the necessary indexing wasn't carried out bfore the crash.

Spooling to disk while bypassing the Windows cache at one time also resulted in faster and smoother sequential reads/writes of large files such as multi-track audio. Whether bypassing Window's cache is a speed boost with modern HDDs which have larger buffer caches than their predecessors can only be deternined by trying it and seeing what happens. I've activated the Windows caching in Sonar's preferences before now and seen it load entire projects into RAM the first time they're played then keep the data in RAM. Which gives very fast data throughput indeed so long as you have sufficient free RAM in the first place.

The downside is a Sonar or Windows crash will lose everything recorded that's being held in RAM. Which may not be a situation you'd want to find yourself in.

Which is, of course, also the disadvantage of using a RAM disk. Until what's stored there is saved elsewhere it is virtual data that ceases to exist the millisecond Windows shuts down or reboots. The trade-off being speed for data security.

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#10
Dyonight
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Re: Anybody using a RAM Disk? 2015/04/07 18:46:21 (permalink)
Very interesting!
 
How do you actually enable windows caching in Sonar's preference?

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Paul P
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Re: Anybody using a RAM Disk? 2015/04/07 22:18:51 (permalink)
tlw
Spooling to disk while bypassing the Windows cache at one time also resulted in faster and smoother sequential reads/writes of large files such as multi-track audio.



While this would be true for a single track, won't multi-track audio's tracks each go to different files (which may be far apart if you're unlucky) ?  At least having a dedicated audio drive keeps the head movement restricted to handling only the tracks and not have it also move around for OS and other program activity.

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SilkTone
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Re: Anybody using a RAM Disk? 2015/04/08 01:30:04 (permalink)
Dyonight
Good explanation thanks!
 
When you talk of "disk cache" I understand physical faster memory on the actual drive. Is there a way to virtually boost this hardware cache with a ramdisk or something? Is it worth it?

 
There is some memory on the physical drive for caching, but the OS uses a lot more memory for its own disk caching. I did a test once when my system still had 8GB RAM, and the OS used 1GB of that for disk caching.
 
To be honest, I don't think there is much you can do these days to improve disk caching since OS disk caching has been fine tuned and has become very sophisticated and effective. Any 3rd party utility claiming to improve disk performance will probably do more harm than good.
 
post edited by SilkTone - 2015/04/13 15:46:19

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#13
5MilesHigh
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Re: Anybody using a RAM Disk? 2015/04/13 13:11:40 (permalink)
I also haven't used a RAM disk since my Atari days with Dr. T's KCS. However, I've been turning on my new Haswell on a MSI mobo. I have 16GB RAM and haven't seen anything use more than 10 GB, so far. I'd just started looking at the MSI overclock tools and noticed the RD. I've also got a 2 SSDs (boot and BU) with most stuff on the HDD's. I set the RD up and things sure seem to work faster and better. My main motivation was to remove all the junk that the system uses for temp files off the SSD which was plenty fast, but this is much better so far and the OS seems much more responsive. More so than I expected, which is why I thought to post. This seems even better than OC from 3.3 GHz to 3.8 GHz. I'm not likely to use the overclocking but wanted to set it up and learn it now rather than later.
 
While I'd like to try this with my laptop, the OS needs all of the 4GB's it has, so that won't work. But with excess idle memory floating around on the desktop, I figured I'd put it to use. 
 
Even if Sonar doesn't directly use the 'sys temp' directory (which automagically gets pointed at the RD, along with the various browser caches by MSI), OS support and particularly graphics seem much more smooth. I've also noticed that my VRAM on the graphics cards doesn't get used as much either, but that's a game thing. 
 
I'm aware of the downside of RD's, so won't be 'storing' anything on it (other than very temporarily anyway). I already disabled the 'Hibernate' feature and finally got sleep working OK instead. A RAM sized (16GB) hyberfile on my SSD (120) GB is not desirable as it is still just basically a temp working state. Waking from sleep is faster and doesn't use much more power than Hibernate. Of course, I don't disable Hibernate on my laptop, but it doesn't have an SSD and don't much use it on batteries.
 
Good comments above about pagefiles and RD's. If one uses the RD correctly, pagefile use should be reduced, though the pagefile should be on a SSD or HDD and only accessed by the OS when it needs more address space. Pagefiles don't belong on RD's. 
 
While a bit OT for Sonar users, I try to keep things stable across all the constant updates and wondered if others may have tried this. Sonar is one of my more quirky installs and I wouldn't want it to have issues I've created. I'm still pretty bummed about the browser not showing compressed files. 
 
I haven't really exercised Cambridge too much yet, but will probably try some memory intensive stuff.
 
 
 
 
 
#14
5MilesHigh
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Re: Anybody using a RAM Disk? 2015/04/15 17:53:48 (permalink)
Well thanks to all for the background info. 
However, I'd been hoping that somebody might have already done some A/B comparisons and could share their actual experience. Mostly, I was wondering about unintended consequences.
 
I'm pretty familiar with 'caches', tracks, HDD access times (I designed HDD H/M, etc for more than 20 years).
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