Zipper noise on clip gain envelopes - discussion before bug report

Just want to kick this around before calling it a bug.
 
So.... some of the vocalists I record are less good at dynamic control than others. And for a few years now, I've been in the habit of using clip gain envelopes to control level before the vocal hits any compressors downstream. I don't like using compressors as the only level control; I prefer using them for what they do tonally, in the main.
 
Now, of course, volume envelopes happen after any effects, so switching to volume envelopes won't solve my problem.
 
In a recent project, I recorded a generally very good singer, but there was a lot of work to be done controlling her dynamics. I did this with clip gain envelopes as usual, and noticed, for the first time, a lot of zipper noise at each envelope change.
 
Is this a new bug in Platinum, or have I inadvertently done something I don't usually do?

It might be handy if you posted the zipper sound.
 
http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20150411_ForumExample.mp3
 
I did this fade using the clip gain envelope in SPLAT.3.

A blank FX chain would work too for adjusting volume before effects or populate an FX chain with the plug-ins for the track if using regular plug-ins instead of the ProChannel.

While I appreciate workarounds (I use VocalRider myself) that doesn't really answer the question. I haven't noticed it myself, I'll say that, but I never use clip envelopes as intensively as the OP seems to.

I was looking for a setting like StudioOne has, regarding resolution on automation sync - but did not find for Sonar.
 
Closest I found was AUD.INI settings
[Wave]
MixDezipperUsec=50
GapDezipperUsec=500
 
It's about fade ins for any changes in gain due to envelopes in project.
 
Did Cake forget to implement this for clip envelopes maybe?
 
Also looked for a node recuction thing for envelopes - but did not find any.
I remember seeing such operations in other daws at least.
But it might be there.

I tested this for a couple of hours on a short vocal clip.
 
Major clip gain changes within each word, and also with/without track automation in a similar manner to see if cumulative effect had anything to do with it.
 
I also tried fast and slow curve for the nodes. This could in some circumstances make a tiny little zip in there on either fast or slow.
 
But when I really could make it zip - offset mode and drag fader on track rather fast - which I don't know if that is nothing but normal. As long as not persistent each play through, it does not matter to me.
 
Yes, I think samples from your export would be helpful, to hear exactly to which degree it zips?
You mean like tiny wobbles in tone, or similar?
 
If one gets a clear zip in an own project, one can change fade settings like dezip above.
My theory is that default values are not perfect for every operation - and a certain steepness would cause the fade ins to be audible. Since settings for fade ins are fixed value to use for any steepness, I mean, seems likely that there are conditions where fade ins are too slow or fast.

Right, that didn't work.
 
https://vimeo.com/128682833

I used to get a "zipper" noise when tweaking simple parameters in the PC like on the QuadCurve or other stuff. It was a system resource thing. I was still using my Layla3g through bridged PCI and hadn't yet learned about buffers. I got my new interface and all that went away but even with the old Layla just upping my buffers before doing mixing stuff made it stop.
 
Not saying that's the problem but if you've got your buffers set for low latency recording try upping them to see if that helps... just for the sake of troubleshooting.
 
Also... is this project specific? Sorry if you already answered that.

No, it never used to happen at all, and now it happens on all projects. Have latency settings fairly high; haven't changed them for a couple of years, in fact. I do all my monitoring direct, so I don't really need low latency.

John T
No, it never used to happen at all, and now it happens on all projects. Have latency settings fairly high; haven't changed them for a couple of years, in fact. I do all my monitoring direct, so I don't really need low latency.

Perhaps S15 is just a little more resource hungry than its predecessors so it just barely nudged your system over the quirk point.
 
But I'll defer to the others knowledge. I've only really experienced that noise in that scenario or when using extreme settings on some plugs.

John T
OK, if you watch that you'll have to listen carefully for the problem. But note how there are little clicks when the now time hits the clip gain nodes.
 
Things this is not:
 
- it's not to do with the steepness of the envelope; this now happens however far apart the nodes are
- it's not how it's always worked; I've been using this method in Sonar for years, and this is strictly a post Sonar 2015 problem
- it's not to do with any effects downstream; effects are in global bypass for this video.
 

The noise in your video sounds more like a click from an extremely rapid amplitude change than what I would call classic "zipper" noise. I tested this back when you first posted, and couldn't reproduce anything.
Do you still have X3 available to verify that particular project doesn't have a problem in the earlier version?
 
I just checked again, and can only reproduce a click if the amplitude changes by many dB almost instantaneously, (i.e. nodes within a couple milliseconds of each other), and no noise of any kind for anything over 4-5 milliseconds.