AdamGrossmanLG
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Why Dither?
so this may seem like a noob question (prob is), but OK, I understand dithering is meant for when you are reducing bit rate.. say you are exporting a 24 bit project to a 16-bit file for CD burning, but why can't I just export as 24 bit and then convert it outside of Cakewalk using an audio conversion program? I guess i just dont understand why dither? Also should I be dithering as I work in the "Playback and Recording" area in preferences? Thank You, Adam
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interpolated
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Re: Why Dither?
2015/04/18 10:27:08
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Here is one explaination. When you move from 24-bit to 16-bit, the possible amount of values contained in audio recording is reduced. A bit like MP3 reduces the quality by filtering and removing frequencies. Dithering adds a discrete Pink or White Noise to the audio track before reducing the bit rate. This compensates by using a noise shaping technique to psychoacoustically fill the void. Without this you would just remove anything that couldn't be kept within the bounds of 16-bit. Since you won't always be using 16-bit, it's good 24-bit as a default.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Why Dither?
2015/04/18 10:31:35
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Cool thank you. What if I am exporting my music to a WAV file, then convert it to MP3 outside of Cakewalk? Do I need dithering then? Is it just for bouncing to 16-bit? Also do I need it on in the prefs or just while exporting? Thank you interpolated!
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lfm
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Re: Why Dither?
2015/04/18 10:33:50
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One explanation that I read that makes sense to me: Like said, the conversion to something with less quantization steps introduce artifacts - many values in 24 bit become one value 16 bit. Ears/brains makes patterns of everything that occur in the same spot - like a certain quantization step. Adding noise makes a little randomness to this very spot - sometimes it becomes a ONE, sometime a ZERO. So less for brain to make patterns off. In short it sound better to our ears.
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mettelus
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Re: Why Dither?
2015/04/18 10:34:03
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To answer your first question, you can export a 24-bit file and convert it in another program. Just bear in mind that not all programs will yield the same results, nor have the options available that SONAR does for that conversion.
You only need to worry about dithering during export (if needed).
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tlw
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Re: Why Dither?
2015/04/18 11:58:44
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If you're working with 24 bit audio then turn dithering off until you do the final actual conversion to 16 bit.
Lots of other applications can convert 24 bit to 16 bit, however most of them will (or can) add dithering of some sort or another.
As for "why dither", some people can tell if audio hasn't been dithered some of the time, others seem not to be abke to tell dithered from undithered. It seems to be very dependant on the original audio and the algorithm used. Dithering is a very subtle thing and may not even be noticeable. If in doubt export several times, once without dithering then repeat suing the various dithering algorithms Sonar provides then see if you can hear any difference and go with the one that sounds best.
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brundlefly
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Re: Why Dither?
2015/04/18 12:03:10
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tlw If you're working with 24 bit audio then turn dithering off until you do the final actual conversion to 16 bit.
This isn't necessary. SONAR won't apply dithering to any bounce/rendering process unless there's a reduction in bit-depth.
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Lynn
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Re: Why Dither?
2015/04/18 12:04:54
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I export 24 bit files to Sound Forge without dithering, edit the stereo file in SF, and "save as" to 16/44.1, using a template, when I'm done. SF does an excellent job of dithering.a I could just as easily export to SF at 16/44.1 and use Sonar's dithering, but that's what I bought SF for. Let your ears be your guide.
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drewfx1
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Re: Why Dither?
2015/04/18 12:28:13
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Most of the answers given that try to explain dither are wrong in whole or in part. They may be easy to understand but they are wrong. The short answer: Dithering is just adding random noise at roughly the level of the lower bit depth step size before reducing bit depth and it does two things: 1. It makes the often ugly quantization distortion sound like noise - essentially because the distortion becomes based on a random signal (the dither) instead of your signal. 2. It preserves part of the signal that's below the lowest level possible at the lower bit depth. Instead of the very quietest parts being cut off completely, they are still there to the extent that you can hear them in the noise.
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rabeach
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Re: Why Dither?
2015/04/18 15:30:25
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truncation introduces artifacts that are statistically determinable. dither breaks up the statistical determinability of these artifacts. if you ever have the opportunity to view the spectrograph of a 24bit sine wave truncated to 16bit without dither and truncated to 16bit with dither you will immediately know what dither does and why you need to apply it.
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konradh
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Re: Why Dither?
2015/04/18 16:21:32
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Please remember that only 16-bit stereo wav files can be written to a standard audio CD (although you can save mp3s and other formats as data on a CD). That is one reason to dither when you export from Sonar. I am sure others have their own methods, but when I am finally finished with a song, I export it three times: 1-As a 24-bit wav (no dithering) to save as the master, to send to the mastering engineer, and as a download for those who want high-quality (but large) files. 2-As a 16-bit wav (dithered) to write on a CD for listening purposes in different environments. If a mastering engineer is making the final CD version for me, then I usually compress this one just as a trial version for my own use. 3-An mp3 to send by email or other methods for which a wav is too large. We had a lively discussion on this forum recently about whether the particular dithering option in Sonar makes a difference a human can hear. We all agreed that dithering in general can make an audible difference (though not always obvious). When it came to the discussion about whether it mattered much whether you use Rectangle, Triangle, Powr-1, Powr-2, or Powr-3, I said no one could tell the difference. Some people agreed and some did not. I normally use Powr-2 but can't really justify that choice.
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rabeach
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Re: Why Dither?
2015/04/18 16:27:33
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i did not read this article so I can't comment on it's validity but Figure 10: Overlapping Spectrograph Plots of Dithered vs. Truncated Sine Waves on page 9 shows a plot of a truncated sine wave with dither applied and no dither applied. compare that with Figure 3: Spectrograph Plot of a 24 Bit 100Hz Sine Wave shown on page 3 http://www.users.qwest.ne...ng/DitherExplained.pdf
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Beepster
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Re: Why Dither?
2015/04/18 17:04:26
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brundlefly
tlw If you're working with 24 bit audio then turn dithering off until you do the final actual conversion to 16 bit.
This isn't necessary. SONAR won't apply dithering to any bounce/rendering process unless there's a reduction in bit-depth.
I did not know this. I always set dithering to "None" when exporting to the same bit depth. Even with this knowledge I'll probably keep doing that because I'm an anal weirdo... unless of course there is a reason to NOT use that method.
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interpolated
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Re: Why Dither?
2015/04/18 19:01:22
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Dithering is a like a placebo and a plaster. I also make 24 bit flac files for websites like soundcloud whomn support it I believe.
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synkrotron
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Re: Why Dither?
2015/04/19 04:32:45
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Well... Every day is a school day I've always left my dithering option as Powr-1 only based on my total lack of knowledge. I work in 44.1/24 bit, export as a 24 bit WAV and then open in SF10 for normalising/compression. From SF10 I then save-as a 320kbps MP3 file for Soundcloud. I do not burn to CD nowadays... If Sonar doesn't dither if exporting as same bit depth then I guess I can just carry on as I am, but I'm tempted to do the same as Beep from now on......
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c5_convertible
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Re: Why Dither?
2015/04/20 09:00:00
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The way I understood dithering, is that when you have a 24-bit file, and you have audio that resides in the lowest significant bits, and you downsample to 16-bit, you basically cut of the least 8 bits of the audio. So, this means, that your "sound" in that LSB is lost (not that it would be much though). So, all audio in the LSB's are set to 0. When you dither, it adds a noise to your audio. Which might shift the LSB into the higher bits, and as such becomes "audible". In essence, it is the same as when you would have a number with digits behind the decimal point. Like 23.4 or 45.7. When you truncate, you get 23 and 45. Let's say you add 0.5 (the noise). The first case would amount to 23.9, and the second to 46.2. When truncating this, you get 23 and 46... So, the 'upper' part of the digits (the .7 in the second example) actually counted in your truncation. That's how I understood dithering... Can you hear it, yes, but it would be very very subtle... Sometimes dithering is added to CD's as well (chesky records does this on some of their cd's) so that errors in the DAC's are minimized.
post edited by c5_convertible - 2015/04/20 09:06:40
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