Forever struggling to get the bass sounding good

Where do I apply for my golden frimbalo?

FWIW, That bass track doesn't sound bad to me...
It sounds like a good DI recording.  Much more jazzy than harder funk/rock...
Sounds like what you're looking for is an "amped up" more aggressive tone.
 
Do you have access to a nice tube bass amp/cab?
If so, I'd re-amp the track.
An Ampeg tube head playing thru a nice cab will give you that angry aggressive tone.
A little "grind/dirt" not only adds character... but can also add articulation in the upper mids.
 
If you don't have access to a nice bass amp, do you have access to a Kemper Profiling Amp?
If so, I've got a bunch of profiles I've created using an Ampeg VB4 playing thru a SVT-410 HLF (mic'd 101 different ways).  Makes recording electric bass a breeze.  The profiles are small... I could upload them for you to download.

I agree with Jim, that bass doesn't sound bad to me either. I didn't realize until I watched the video that you had a good capture of the bass track only.
 
A few things you can play with from here (mostly EQ ideas):

1. It "seems" you want a more pronounced attack on the strings, so backing off attack time on the compression (was hard to tell all that is going on there) will let more of each string attack through.
2. The bass raw will cover a couple octaves, so using an audio microscope (and even HPF/LPF with the resonant peak jacked up like a synth resonance knob) sweep through that track to get the tone you are seeking. Pay particular attention to the attack on each string. Once you find the sweet spots, back down to a reasonable level and go from there.
3. Re-amping with TH2 is perfectly fine to do, but I would not get carried away with FX chains. Keep it simple and only add FX that contribute to what you want to add (i.e. don't "re-muddy" the track getting heavy-handed with them).

That track is captured pretty nicely, so you have a lot of leeway to play with there.

I agree with the above posters that the bass doesn't sound bad at all. It just needs to be dirtied up a bit with some harmonic distortion (Cosmos can do that, but a good bass amp sim will do it better), or boost the harmonics that are already there. Making bass guitar cut through the mix has very little to do with the "bass" frequencies and much more to do with harmonics.
 
Since you're using MSpectralDynamics, on bass you might do better with a custom threshold than messing with the slope. What you can do with a custom threshold is raise the threshold in the harmonic region - I'd start around 900-1000 Hz.
 
Although I am a huge fan of MSpectralDynamics, for this particular application I'd be more likely to reach for a dynamic equalizer such as MDynamicEQ. I'd apply expansion to the harmonic range, probably starting with filters at around 400 and 900 Hz with little or no static gain but a large dynamic gain.
 
Beyond spectral enhancement, you're already on the right track using compression to give it a pluckier attack. You might want to try a more aggressive compressor such as the free Rough Rider from Audio Damage, a plugin that I happen to be enamored with at the moment. And as much as I hate to suggest a Waves solution, the multi-band version of Trans-X could be just the ticket here.

Late to the party... I liked the way the bass sounded in the initial mix. Contrary to "best practice" I would try boosting the top end of the bass track a little bit to accentuate the string attack.
 
but that is probably me projecting my preference onto your project.

always try to get your sound,
without any processing, 
first.
 
outside of the box.
 
this is the 'purist' way.
 
 
do not apply 'mix tricks' to dial in your sound.
 

Hey Geoff, ever measure your car's acoustics? I did (my car, not yours), and it was an eye-opener.

I did a test - in the garage tho - where I played pink noise and recorded the result with a mic in the center of the car.
 
Me in the car changes things a bit, but it's actually pretty fair. Not flat of course, especially as you get higher up the ranges. But it's not bad. Maybe I can find it and post the result. Or just do another.

bottom line:
 
you need a good treated room, and good monitors,
to make mixes that have good translation.
 
all the rest, is just a clusterphuck 

gswitz
I can hear the music ok while I mix it. That isn't the issue for me.
 
When mixing for one stereo in one location, it's not too tricky to get a good sounding mix.
 
As Mettalus says, the issue is making a mix to be played anywhere someone feels like it. You want listeners to be able to hear the music clearly and enjoy it.
 
Bassist wants more bass.
Drummer wants more drumz.
Guitarists just want more. :-)
 
It's a tricky balance to get a good mix. I think because of the hard bass boost in my car, I under do the bass. I use my car as ceiling for bass levels. If I can't enjoy it in the car with a particular bass setting, then I will turn it down in the mix. I listen to lots of great pro recordings in my car and none of them sound unreasonably bassy on my car stereo.
 
Still, it may be that I should just let go some and mix into a zone where I'm just less comfortable.
It'll e x p a n d   m y   m i n d.
 
:-)

Hi Geoff,
 
First off, I think you are a pretty good engineer getting good results.
 
Secondly, I feel (even though I too was once a victim of this) you are over-thinking things, over testing and probably over analyzing or comparing mixes to people who may have 30+ years under their belts and 2 million in gear/facilities. You're good brother....and you're putting out good quality no matter what you're using these days. :)
 
Thirdly, the part of your comment that I put in bold text is something you need to fix. You should never have to rely on a car to judge your bass control. Though this seems to work for you, it tells me there are things you need to fix with your monitors. It's good to be able to listen in your car and be happy, but we should never let that car value go further than it needs to be.
 
Get a nice sub if you don't have one, get ARC and let it flatten your monitors at the least, and see how you fair. Quite a few people will try and talk you out of a sub especially in a smaller room. Those near-fields claim to go down to a certain frequency, but let me tell you, bass will always be a tough one to judge unless you have something capable of giving you that low end in all the right places.
 
At the worst case, if a sub makes you mix bass light, you have too much of it in the mix. Lower the sub, you'll mix bass heavier. Too little sub, you'll mix bass heavy. It takes a little trial and error...but you should have it dialed in within 2-3 mixes.
 
You and I have talked in the past and you mentioned that you liked some of the mixes I've done....I use ARC and it works. Bats uses ARC....if you like his mixes, there's more incentive. Bapu uses ARC....quite a few have consistent mixes with it that sound really good. According to some of the data provided on the net, ARC is not supposed to work or make much of a difference. According to MY data...my ears/my end result....it's incredible, has made my mixes better, I get done faster and I never second guess anything.
 
If you have all of the above, there may be a possibility that you have to re-correct the room with ARC. I have a pdf I created that I can share that will tell you all the steps to take so you can check things over. You have to be meticulous or ARC may fail.
 
I just rebuilt my music room in my house. 12x12 room that I do quite a bit of work in when I'm not at the big studio down the shore. I was concerned about starting over. I had so much stuff in this room, it was crazy and looked like a little music store. But having all that stuff deadened the room quite a bit. Needless to say, I rebuilt it from the ground up. I ARC'd it and it failed.....checked my own notes and I was the one that failed. LOL! Re-ARC'd it and it's perfect now.
 
I have no bass traps, no ugly decor, use 3 different subs, 3 different monitor rigs, and what I mix here, sounds the way it should everywhere. I just bought a new Jeep and the bass is a little heavy in there...even on mixes that are not my own as well as the radio. So I brought the bass down 2 increments and it sounds the same as it does in my Vette and my Avalanche...which both have the same Bose system.
 
At the worst case, ARC corrects your monitors to a flat response. From there, you can treat your room if need be with other stuff. Now another thing to keep in mind, you are listening to material on your car speakers that is mastered. Most DIY guys mix more bass in their mixes than there needs to be. Or, they master and over-do it. A professional master done by someone who knows what they are doing gives you good bass...not rumbly bass.
 
Most guys don't know what good bass is to even know how or what to add. I'm totally serious when I say this. A mix done in a pro studio is not loaded with bass. It's actually pure and pretty neutral. The mastering adds the other stuff, and usually it's not extreme unless there are instructions to do so or a producer is looking for something specific.
 
If you listen to pro mixes done in the 70's and 80's/early 90's (of any style) you don't hear any rumbly bass. As the years have gone on, you hear more bass, but it's tighter bass....it doesn't rumble unless you listen to something created in competition for the volume wars. There are so many things we do in mastering that people don't notice. The reason being? It's like a compressor...what you don't blatantly hear is how it is supposed to be done. For example, I may add 50 Hz to a recording....but it may be a tight Q 50 Hz where it enhances, but does not dominate. You're not going to get thrust and rumble out of it. That said, there has to be a reason to add that frequency. We just don't add it for the sake of, ya know?
 
So there are some things to think about. Just do your thing man....you're good at it. The bass sound you have in this song is fine by my ears. Unless you are going for something specific, if it sounds good, it is good. As far as bass drive goes...I personally hate that type of sound. Not that my opinion matters, but I come from the school of 
"bass that sounds nearly like a piano with low end". Especially for stuff that is classic rock sounding. I just mixed and mastered a band in Cali called "Points North". Instrumental rock...but the bass tone is one of the best I have ever achieved. Some of it due to me, some of it due to the player and his choice of bass.
 
I know in the 60's and early 70's we had some bass drive at times, but man...some of it was done well, some of it was horrible. The good dirt you may be looking for usually doesn't come from any plugins. The reason being, no one (other than UAD) knows what proper saturation is supposed to sound like IMHO. I've never heard anything give you the good drive we all seek when we need this sort of thing in plugin format.
 
As you know, there is a difference between distortion and saturation. I just don't like any drive on a bass unless it's tube drive from an outboard source or tape saturation. (in moderation) Everything else falls way short...unless you have the UAD stuff. Even they aren't perfect, but their tape sims are the closest I have ever heard and their Fatso compressors are off the hook for that as well.
 
Whatever the case, a little sizzle can be good....but the key word there is "a little" and you HAVE to have the right source giving you sizzle. Those channel sims....oh man...no offense to Cake, Waves or anyone else that has them...but....I hate them. I've worked with tape and outboard gear as long as I have without. Someone needs to take a step back and really listen to what this stuff is supposed to sound like. It makes me wonder how old the guys are that are simulating these pieces at the creation/code stage. If they ain't 50 or 60, they ain't lived it.
 
Also, though these channel tool artifacts exist and may have been used on pro albums using the big consoles, in all my schooling with actual SSL and NEVE consoles, we NEVER over-drove the channels in those boards. If we did, it sounded like @ss x10...and let me tell you, there was nothing magical or musical about it. I'd rather saturate from something MADE to saturate.
 
The pre's on those consoles were made to produce clean, clear signals. If someone did drive them, they are kidding themselves if they think it sounded good. Heck, anyone giving them props is just kissing up...unless it was done for effect on purpose. LOL! That's just me though...use whatever works man. We always drove signals from tube pre's or outboard gear that actually sounded musical and pleasing to the ears.
 
The bass tones guys use today with modern music......uggh...full blown distortion. I'm open to change....I accept it, I understand it....but that said, I can't help that I feel it sounds terrible and degrades the sound while attempting to hide the imperfections kinda like a guitarist hiding behind effects. It's just bad in my opinion.
 
I know you're not looking for anything that extreme. You could always re-amp the bass through that Ampeg SVX sim. I've found that to be one of the best bass sims out there and my "go to" when I need a little something else. These days, I'm getting an incredible sound going right into my Midas M32 with a DI and a little compression printed in real time. The Midas pre's are really good...so it's like having a super pricey front end. Other times I have great results with a bass POD or some other pre-amp. Sometimes we take a live feed from an amp, sometimes I mic the cab (though I just about never like that sound) whatever we do, we end up with good tones thank God. :)
 
At any rate, this message was pretty much to pat you on the back while also sharing a few things with you on the side. Try not to over-think this stuff. Sometimes less is more and sometimes a basic sound is all that is needed. The stuff I've heard you share has been sounding good. I might not post as often as I used to, but I'm always listening and reading. :)
 
-Danny

One of the big problems with the bass sound is people most often just have way too much bass in the mix. Tell the bass player to go away when they start wanting more bass.  Tell them you are mixing and it is all about balance.  Once band members start telling me how to mix I say to them either leave it to me or I drop this job right now.  And you will pay me too right up to this point. (those tracks that Geoff put up all have too much bass in them)
 
Here is a good tip.
 
When you think you have got the bass level right, note where it is on the fader then mute it and listen to the music for at least 15 minutes without it.  Then feed the whole mix into a small mono Auratone type speaker at low volume.  While down there put the bass fader right down to zero.  Unmute the bass then slowly bring the bass level up to where it just sits nicely in the mix.  Just audible and nice.  You will find it will be about 6 dB lower than where it was before.  That is where the bass level should be.
 
In all the best mixes I have heard the bass is just sitting nicely under the music, audible but not loud.
 
Car systems are a bit of a worry I agree with Danny on this.  Mine has a massive low end too.  What I have done is taken test tracks or great reference tracks into the car and tweaked the car bottom end to bring it back to normal and more in line.  It can be a useful refernece.  I find if my teeth are rattling in the car then there is usually too much deep low end going on.  I go back inside and sort it out.  I find a lot of great reference tracks have a lovely punchy low end in the car but don't rattle my teeth.  And the bass is just at the right level.
 
Bass is nice and we all like it hence the reason there can be a trend to push it slightly too high.  Don't give into that.  Keep it into perspective like everything else.  A mix means a mix of everything and all things at the right level and in perspective. When the bass level is too high even by 6 dB you are using a lot of the available spectrum energy which means there is too little left for the rest of the entire mix!
 
Subs are nice yes but as Danny says they need to be very correctly set for their level. You can actually get the bass level right in a 4" Auratone speaker down at low volume too.  If you cannot hear it there it also means there is not enough mid range and top end energy associated with the bass sound too.

Jeff's tip is a great one. This is not really a "tip" but I have found is a very nice litmus test for a mix in general (but will fall short with bass specifically and defies about every sound engineer's advice there is).
 
I have a Motorola Droid Maxx, and noticed that playing it lying on a hard flat surface (this part is very crucial) will reveal a lot with the elements and how they sit. No digital enhancements whatsoever, and even mp3 work for this provided you do not get "crazy low" on the bit rate.
 
Reading the forums makes me realize how "unorthodox" my setups are at times, but I went through the first few pages of the "Golden Ears" link Noel had posted using that phone (then got bored and went to bed). Some things in life definitely fall into the realm of "don't knock 'em till you try 'em." (This is also why I get wrapped around the wheel at times on listening environments, since the listener may be using the worst equipment on the planet, but still wants to enjoy the music.)

Thanks Codamedia. I appreciate you listening and your feedback.
 
I think it's ok to have more than one mix of a performance. Obviously if you are going to print a bunch you'll probably pick one, but if you burn each CD for a particular person, you can have different versions and pick the version to fit the listener.
 
I think it's ok to work out a nice bassy mix. I've been mixing bands a long time. I've mixed a lot of concerts. I think my appetite for mixes that push the limits of what I've learned is growing. I'm pretty good at following the rules now. I know a lot of tricks (thanks everyone here for that!). 
 
To me, there can be a lot of mixes that sound good. If my friends want me to stretch in a new direction, why not?
 
I feel that mixing is a bit like cooking. Breaking rules can help you stand out in a crowd. It's ok to push the limits. I know this can only work if you still cook what tastes good. I'm trying!
 
I'm a good listener and I'm not really having a problem with the mixes.
http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20140816_CowFest2_10_Cry4thAmendment.mp3
 
And the new mixes are definitely making the band happier than the December delivery.
http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20140816_CowFest2_10_Cry4thAmendment_DecemberMix.mp3
 
To tell the truth, it's made me much more aware of how much compromise is made to have only one mix of a concert. Wouldn't it be cool to be able to pick from 5 different mixes of a show? Buy the one YOU think sounds best!
 
With both mixes on the shelf, I wouldn't normally reach for the December mix.

Thanks Danny. I feel I'm on a safari and that I may come upon something new and important to my overall understanding.

http://forum.cakewalk.com...aspx?m=3220746&p=2

I put up a new video here.

I have gotten the same feedback from enough people that it is making me challenge my assumptions.