K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ?

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Paul P
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2015/04/22 17:25:38 (permalink)

K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ?

 
I think I've learned the basics of the K-System, though I haven't yet had a chance to use it for real.
 
Say you chose -20db for reference.  I understand that you try to get your input tracks to be around that and may adjust with the gain knob before going any further.
 
For a recording done outside Sonar, would it make sense to normalize the wav file to -20 by using something like Audacity of Audition before importing the file into Sonar ?  Or does it not make any difference ?  Does normalizing do anything different than the gain control ?
 
My thinking is if I'm going to try to maintain -20 throughout, I might as well start there as well.
 

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    interpolated
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/22 17:45:38 (permalink)
    Be wary the K-System refers to the average volume level at 83dB SPL at the 0 decibel point. The K System was developed by Bob Katz as an alternative to the varying RMS measurement standards.
     
    Let me explain, the K-20 reference was designed for classical,soundtrack and music without a lot of loud transients like you get in dance music or rock music. So the -20dB refers to the average volume level at any given time rather than the instantaneous VU reading. 
     
    When you refer to the meters using the K-system when the bars cross the 0 point, this is where it's exceedig -20dB RMS. However if your VU meter may be peaking at -3dB which is a tell-tale sign of lack of dynamic boost in your overall mix. It also allows you to judge the VU volume and RMS in the same place.  So adjusting the EQ or volume of a certain track might be enough to fix that. Limiting should be last thing on the agenda.
     
    I'm rubbish at explaining things however I hope that helps.
     
    Personally I never normalise sounds unless it's a final product not mid-project. 
     
    post edited by interpolated - 2015/04/22 17:52:38

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/22 18:08:20 (permalink)
    With the K system it is important to use proper VU meters rather than the DAW meters. The DAW meters won't tell you much and the rms readings are so low it is much harder to read. Also Sonar rms meters show the rms reading as being 3dB lower than where they should be which is also not good.
     
    There are VU meter plugins of course and what you do is calibrate them so an rms signal down at -20 makes the VU meter show 0 dB VU. (note a correct rms level of -20 rms will show as -23 rms in Sonar, unless this has been fixed in X3 of course!)
     
    Normalizing is not the way to go either. That process looks at peaks not rms levels so it is useless. (unless you can do rms normalization but I still would not do that) What I do whan a project is tracked outside of my main DAW is open the tracks up in an editor program one by one and take an rms reading of each track. Some tracks will be louder than 0 dB VU so I might drop them down by that amount. Other tracks may fall short of 0 dB VU so I usually add gain to those tracks to get them back up to 0 dB VU.
     
    You can also do this by importing the tracks into your main DAW and setup an rms VU meter over them and take some readings. Then adjust the gain so all the tracks are showing the same rms reading. Make sure you make a complete backup of the whole session before you do any permanent changes to gains etc...
     
    It is a good idea especially for sessions recorded outside your main DAW to adjust all the tracks so they are all around -20 dB rms (or 0 db VU) then the mixing process will be much easier.

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    gswitz
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/22 18:43:52 (permalink)
    I don't normalize tracks outside of Sonar.
    I prefer the gain nobs to strict 'normalization' using process > audio > Normalize.
     
    I do use process > audio > normalize sometimes. This does not normalize to RMS or VU. It normalizes to peak.
     
     
     

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    Paul P
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/22 21:48:13 (permalink)
    Jeff Evans
    Normalizing is not the way to go either. That process looks at peaks not rms levels so it is useless.



    Ok, this I hadn't thought of.  I have the Klanghelm meters so I'm ok within Sonar.  I was just thinking that if I wanted to use -20 (for example) and keep things there throughout, I might as well start with a track that is already at -20.  But I didn't realise normalizing looks at peaks, not rms (actually I knew it, I just didn't think).
     
    So I'll use the gain knob and my meters.
     
    Thanks.
     

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    batsbrew
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/23 11:48:14 (permalink)
    all it does is move the waves up to where the peaks all hit the same spot (that you dictate, all the way up to 0db)
     
    it does not provide any advantage at all,
    except to bring up the noise floor; if there is noise on your tracks at low level,
    it brings that up too.

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    interpolated
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/23 16:39:25 (permalink)
    http://www.meterplugs.com/kmeter
     
    Watch the Freemasons video. Makes interesting viewing.
     

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    bitflipper
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/23 16:40:18 (permalink)
    "Normalization" has a broader definition than just raising everything until the highest peak is at some target level. Broadly, it means to make things conform to some standard. You can normalize to any target: peak, RMS, LUFS, K-20 or any other reference you like. 
     
    Whether it's worthwhile pre-normalizing files prior to mixing is another question. It could be a time-saver as Jeff suggests, but it depends on how wildly off they are. If they're all reasonably in the ballpark, I wouldn't bother. It's not that hard to normalize within the DAW if that turns out to be necessary.


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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/23 17:07:34 (permalink)
    I have just recently mixed a track that was tracked elsewhere.  Some of the tracks were 15 db too low in level others were 3 dB too low.  Some were 4 dB too high.  (makes you wonder how people actually track stuff, badly folks)  I believe it is well worth making all of them the same rms value (in my case I was working at K-14 for this project)
     
    Even the tracks that are 3 db too low.  It still all helps.  It just means now most of your faders are around unity in order to achieve nice buss levels etc..  You never have to add in plugins to add gain etc..  You don't have to turn down very loud tracks.  They are just all at the perfect level ready for a mix.
     
    I was measuring rms values using a VU meter also.  Bringing up tracks even by as much as 15 db rarely makes the noise audible either.  If a track was tracked down at say -30 db it means the noise is more than likely still 50 to 60 db below that.  Yes adding 15 db of gain to a track raises everything but in most cases you still wont hear the noise.  Instead you have got a track that is now at the right level rms wise.   That is far more important.

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/23 18:02:56 (permalink)
    interpolated
    http://www.meterplugs.com/kmeter
     
    Watch the Freemasons video. Makes interesting viewing.
     


    Watch out using bar graph meters for showing you rms levels. A VU gives you something else apart from the rms level.  And that is the ballistic.  ie how the needle dances to the music.  There is much to be gained from learning how to read that.  Bar graph meters don't show it anywhere nearly as well.
     
    Real VU's do it the best in terms of ballistics but I must say the VST's are getting very good.  The Klanghelm meter has got a very good ballistic.  I have devised some special tests for showing VU ballistics and some VST's just dont cut it especially in how they fall back.  But the Klanghelm meter is excellent.  Not perfect but damn close.  Also PSP has released a nice VST as well. (Triple meter) and the ballistics have improved in the VU meter I am sure of it.
     
     

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    interpolated
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/23 18:23:59 (permalink)
    I am prone to stick a Universal Audio Precision Meter on my Master Bus at times, although what exists in a DAW should be in theory be the correct reading, no? Or do you professionals use the meters from an outboard desk to manage levels. 
     
    In my headphone amplifier set-up when gauging it, I found -18dB to the best setting on the monitor volume for cross referencing the actual measured value.
     

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/23 19:19:35 (permalink)
    Sonar show rms levels as being 3 db lower than what they should be which is a bit weird.  Normally rms is 3db down from peak and Sonar is doing that correctly.  But the standard for rms readings is that the rms reading of a continuous sine wave should be the actual peak value of that sine wave, not 3 db down.
     
    The main issue is that the DAW rms meter reading is way down on the scale so you are not getting the full scale reading that a VU meter has around 0 dB VU.  Some DAW's (eg Studio One) allow the bar graph meters to go into K System mode so then they jump up to around 0 db VU and all the headroom is above that now.  It is not a bad indicator but it still misses out on the ballistics concept though.
     
    Yes I use real VU's all the time.  But that is not an option for many.  It requires the purchase of decent VU meters and they are not cheap.  The proper electronics to drive them too.  And you have to mount them in a box etc so it is all a bit fiddly.  You can buy them too fully made up in a box etc but they will be expensive.
     
    The real VU's are something else again though.  Hard to explain it.  They dance in the ultimate way.
     
    Hey this is cheap:
     
    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Custom-VU-Meters-3-Large-Simpson-VU-Meters-/111650225948?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item19fedf3f1c
     
    Problem is it is in Australia just around the corner from me. I should check this out myself! Except it is US voltage eg 120V so it would be perfect for you guys.
    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2015/04/23 19:28:16

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/24 09:43:00 (permalink)
    Hey Jeff, any thoughts on these?
     
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/N...&keywords=vu+meter

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    Paul P
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/24 09:58:26 (permalink)
     
    I don't see the size of those meters, but I wouldn't expect much.  And you'll need the circuitry.
     
    I'd go with something more like these :  Simpson VU meters
     
    I've caught some pretty nice NOS meters for great prices if I waited for the right moment.
     
    You can also remove them from old equipment that you can get for cheap.
     
    EDIT :  Hey, did one of us just grab those meters Jeff linked to ?  Jeff ?
     
    post edited by Paul P - 2015/04/24 10:08:05

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/24 16:20:38 (permalink)
    The actual VU meter itself is pretty important.  I prefer the larger front sized VU movement.  It means the needle is longer and there must be some change in inertia for the needle.  It would move or dance differently as a result.  It will cost anything from $75 up.  And you need two of course.
     
    Here is a link to the type of meter I like:
     
    http://www.ebay.com.au/it...722&_qi=RTM2010733
     
    That particular ad might be for one meter only as well.
     
    The side movement that Paul P has indicated is interesting.  I have not spent time looking at that type of VU meter at all.  It may be excellent I would imagine due to the needle being made longer.  They can be harder to read a little further away.  The needle gets disguised into the scale markings.  I still think a flat panel meter gives away more information faster.  As to where the needle is what it is doing.
     
    The Amazon meters that Bristol refers to look OK too but smaller.  They tend to have a slightly different ballistic.  A larger meter is easier to see further away.
     
    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2015/04/24 16:41:43

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/25 04:35:42 (permalink)
    Thanks Jeff & Paul

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    interpolated
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/25 16:40:32 (permalink)
    http://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Product_DPeakMeterPro/
     
    Interesting plug-in and not too expensive. I've never used it however it looks like a good tool for the job.

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/25 17:13:09 (permalink)
    I have the Blue Cat meter and it is great to have and tells you a lot. I don't use it much now though. I have found it is good to work in conjunction with this too:
     
    http://www.pspaudioware.com/plugins/tools_and_meters/psp_triplemeter/
     
    This covers all the VU movement that the PSP meter does not have.
     
    The free Orban Loudness meter is good too.
     
    http://www.orban.com/meter/
     
     

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    interpolated
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/25 17:19:29 (permalink)
    I have a couple of Universal Audio plug-ins that use K-Meters however only the peak VU, zoom scaling and K-Metering Scale which only gives you one view of the dynamics. I tend to use the drop-off volume on the release of transients as a guide to where the average is at the moment. 
     
    It gets harder to judge the more complex the mix gets and at times have found that I've been a 2dB from the desired RMS after rendering. Leaving me to believe I'm reading the meters wrong or something else is amiss. 
     

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: K-System - Normalize before entering Sonar ? 2015/04/25 22:12:26 (permalink)
    I like to change K ref levels.  I like working between K-14 and K-20.  I think there is an art to reading a VU meter.  The real ones seem to make a fraction easier.
     
    When I am doing a mixdown of a pre master I will go for a total reading on my VU's so the needle is just reaching 0 dB VU for most of the mix.  Right now I am doing a mix for guy and I have decided to make K-14 my ref level on this.
     
    The VU needle will read low from  0 dB VU and sometimes goes a little over but not wildly go over at anytime. There is some point where the needle tends to hover and be a lot of the time.  That is the point to get around
    0 dB VU.  After I replay this I get an identical reading back and there should be no reason why it should not.
     
    A bit of the skill is in getting the needle to averaging around this 0 dB point.  You may be setting it a little low if there is wild swinging.  You tend to limit the upper level of wild swinging to around 0 dB VU instead.  But then the average level ends up a little low.
     
    When a mix is doing well the ballistics of the needle seem to be a certain way where it just hits 0 dB VU and not go much over but the transients are still present and punchy.  Then you can creep the rms level of that needle movement to being right on 0 dB VU.  (you can practice looking at great mixes on VU's such as Steely Dan's 'Everything Must Go' CD)
     
    Wild swinging of the VU at mixdown means something is responsible and it usually only one thing as well.  Just have to track it down.  Do some editing, reset any dynamics processing on that track and you are away.  The wild swinging in the main mix has gone now.  Now the VU is showing much more of average level and you can adjust it now to sit right up at 0 dB VU.  You can easily add 3 to 4 dB of rms gain once wild swinging of the VU is under control in a mix.
     

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