new preamp

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sven450
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2015/04/04 09:36:05 (permalink)

new preamp

I have a Art MPA Gold upgraded with mullard tubes that I really like.  Works great as a DI and as my vocal pre.  Unfortunately, it appears one of the channels died, and this is just the excuse I need to get a new vocal preamp to add to the studio.  I have about $500 bucks to spend.
 
I am open to just about any suggestions in that price range.  Two of the main contenders are more in the 600-700 range (the Grace 101 and the P-solo).  Anyone have any experience with either of those?

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    Cactus Music
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/04 11:39:00 (permalink)
     I'm getting a lot of use out of my Joe Meek Three Q. I really like the compressor on Vocals.
    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/threeQ
     

     
     
    My next pre amp will be this 
     
    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TB12
     

     
     

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    #2
    sven450
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/04 16:27:37 (permalink)
    whoa.  that tone beast looks pretty nice.  hmmmm.  

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    batsbrew
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/04 19:24:04 (permalink)
    it will take you out of your current range..
     
    but a A Designs P-1...
     
    500 series...
     
    and a dual rack-mount harness........
     
    would allow you to expand your 500 series repertoire as you see fit,
    possibly with another EQ section,
    or even a compressor.
     
    just an idea.
     

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    batsbrew
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/04 19:24:46 (permalink)

    Bats Brew music Streaming
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    batsbrew
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/04 19:25:45 (permalink)

    Bats Brew music Streaming
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    #6
    Beagle
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/04 20:33:56 (permalink)
    sven450
    I have a Art MPA Gold upgraded with mullard tubes that I really like.  Works great as a DI and as my vocal pre.  Unfortunately, it appears one of the channels died, and this is just the excuse I need to get a new vocal preamp to add to the studio.  I have about $500 bucks to spend.
     
    I am open to just about any suggestions in that price range.  Two of the main contenders are more in the 600-700 range (the Grace 101 and the P-solo).  Anyone have any experience with either of those?


    I have been using an ART TPS II for many years and it is similar to the MPA Gold, but not with upgraded tubes.  I have used it as my main vocal pre for several years.  
     
    I also have a P-solo that I've had for a couple of years.  It is NOT my vocal pre, but I use it for acoustic or for any electric or bass.
     
    if you are replacing the ART MPA with a P-solo or Grace M101 then you will probably be disappointed with the results, especially on vocals, but as a DI also.  the True Systems and Grace pres are solid state only, no tubes and absolutely NO "warmth" (tube distortion) - they are very much "straight wire with gain" type pres.  very very clean. 
     
    I love the P-solo for its purpose, but I don't use it when I want to hear some tube because it doesn't have any, it's just clean gain.
     
    my ART TPS is also starting to cause me problems, so I decided to replace it.  what I decided on was an ART MPA PRO II and an ART VLA PRO II.  this way I replace both channels with the newer technology units of preamps and compressors.  (I also get mid/side capabilities with the MPA II which I didn't have before!).
     
    the new MPA II has a higher plate voltage selector you can use which puts more voltage on the tube, giving the tube the ability to hand out higher volumes of harmonics (i.e.: more "warmth" ).
     
    so if you want to replace your MPA with "clean gain" then the Grace or True Systems are the only way to go in that price range.  but if you want to replace it with something which can give you that tube sound, then you should consider the MPA II.

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    Beagle
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/04 20:46:19 (permalink)
    BTW - the Joe Meek which Johnny (Cactus Music) recommended is also a clean preamp but it also has an optical compressor and EQ, that's a lot for the money.  I've never used one myself, tho, so I can't give you a comparison on it.
     
    the Beast, however, has a transformer output and you can dial in how much of the transformer output you use.  this will also give you some "warmth" - this is NOT a clean preamp.  however, the warmth of a transformer based preamp is very different from the warmth of a tube based preamp, so it will also be very different sounding from your MPA.
     
    that A-Designs which Batsbrew recommended is also a transformer based pre.
     
    I've not used either of the A-Designs nor the Beast, but I have used a Golden Audio and a true Neve (the GA unit is a Neve clone) and while they are not clean, they also don't sound like any of the tube pres.

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    AT
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/05 03:10:52 (permalink)
    The Warm Audio stuff is all very nice.  The WA12 is API-ish and has more of a vintage vibe.   The Tone Beast has a wealth of colors since it has two transformers (or none) and a choice of op-amps, as well as gain and output, which means you can drive it hard.
     
    The ISA One is nice, but cleaner, more modern sounding.  It has a transformer, too, and a preamp as well as DI you can use simultaneously.  Kinda like an RND (Rupert Neve Designs), since the Focusrite is based on a Neve design.  A new RND just sounds big, or mine does anyway.  But it is the one in the Portico II channel strip, which runs on big rails w/ a lot of power.  Maybe the single space units don't sound as big.
     
    I just feel having a nice transformer-based preamp works well since most of the interface preamps don't have one.
     
    @

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    sven450
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/07 12:45:16 (permalink)
    Lots of good info here.  I guess I really want the best of both worlds.  I would love to have the option to "warm it up" with some tubi-ness, but having the option of a nice clean pre would be great as well.  Seems like the ISA One might be a good middle ground of some character but not overdone.  The Beast also seem promising, as it looks like you can dial in a variety of gain structures. Too many options!!  Not to mention the 500 series stuff I hadn't even considered yet.
     
    Considering that I will have just one preamp (at least for the forseeable future) I am leaning towards the Focusrite.  Its seems solid, from all accounts is great sounding, and does add a wee bit of the character I may be looking for.

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    batsbrew
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/07 14:53:07 (permalink)
    "warmth" is more likely to come from a mic choice,
    than a distorted tube.
     
    compression, gets you there a lot quicker than a tube.
     
    and forget about warmth from starved plate designs.
     
    it's just distortion.
     

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    Beagle
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/07 15:58:04 (permalink)
    batsbrew
    "warmth" is more likely to come from a mic choice,
    than a distorted tube.
     
    compression, gets you there a lot quicker than a tube.
     
    and forget about warmth from starved plate designs.
     
    it's just distortion.
     


    that's all ANY warmth is.

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    musicroom
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/07 16:16:36 (permalink)
    AT
    The Warm Audio stuff is all very nice.  The WA12 is API-ish and has more of a vintage vibe.   The Tone Beast has a wealth of colors since it has two transformers (or none) and a choice of op-amps, as well as gain and output, which means you can drive it hard.
     
    The ISA One is nice, but cleaner, more modern sounding.  It has a transformer, too, and a preamp as well as DI you can use simultaneously.  Kinda like an RND (Rupert Neve Designs), since the Focusrite is based on a Neve design.  A new RND just sounds big, or mine does anyway.  But it is the one in the Portico II channel strip, which runs on big rails w/ a lot of power.  Maybe the single space units don't sound as big.
     
    I just feel having a nice transformer-based preamp works well since most of the interface preamps don't have one.
     
    @




     
    I have two of these that AT mentions and I wish I had all three. I can't imagine better investment dollars per preamps than the ISA One or Tonebeast. The ISA One sounds good on vocals, but is stunning on direct input guitar and bass. The Tonebeast's strength is vocals between the two for my use, it also sounds good for instruments.

     
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    #13
    sven450
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/07 18:33:28 (permalink)
    musicroom
    AT
    The Warm Audio stuff is all very nice.  The WA12 is API-ish and has more of a vintage vibe.   The Tone Beast has a wealth of colors since it has two transformers (or none) and a choice of op-amps, as well as gain and output, which means you can drive it hard.
     
    The ISA One is nice, but cleaner, more modern sounding.  It has a transformer, too, and a preamp as well as DI you can use simultaneously.  Kinda like an RND (Rupert Neve Designs), since the Focusrite is based on a Neve design.  A new RND just sounds big, or mine does anyway.  But it is the one in the Portico II channel strip, which runs on big rails w/ a lot of power.  Maybe the single space units don't sound as big.
     
    I just feel having a nice transformer-based preamp works well since most of the interface preamps don't have one.
     
    @




     
    I have two of these that AT mentions and I wish I had all three. I can't imagine better investment dollars per preamps than the ISA One or Tonebeast. The ISA One sounds good on vocals, but is stunning on direct input guitar and bass. The Tonebeast's strength is vocals between the two for my use, it also sounds good for instruments.


    As helpful as all this is, it just seems to be getting harder.  Everyone has great things to say about both the ISA and the Tonebeast.  I will be using whichever one as a one trick pony for both vox and DI.  I imagine I'll be happy with either of them.  I have a cheap-ish tube mic (the MXL Mogami V69) that is already pretty dark and warm. It works great for my voice, but is certainly not bright.   Not sure how much more of that I want to introduce for vox.
     
    Cosmetically I also would really rather the rackmount Tonebeast for my setup.  A big tabletop pre will require some rearranging.
     
    Keep those ideas coming if you have them.  Its almost time to buy....

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    joel77
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/09 11:41:47 (permalink)
    Scott,
     
    I've been using the P-Solo for several years. Great clean sound. If that's what you want, you can't go wrong. I use mine with my favorite tube mic (Rode NTV) quite a bit. It does one thing and does it well. I also have several flavors of mic pres, so a one trick pony fits well in my set up.
     
    My next pre amp purchase will be the Tone Beast. Impressed with what I've seen, heard and read about this one and Warm Audio seems like a great company to work with. I have their WA76 compressor. Very impressive!
     
    Another consideration in the Sytek MPX-4Aii. Four channels. You can get it with Burr Brown op amps for a slightly warmer sound in two, or all four channels. It's $800 - $900 new, so may be out of your budget. See here - http://www.sytek-audio-systems.com/products/preamps/mpx4/
     
    Have fun shopping! 

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    Paul P
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/09 13:04:23 (permalink)
    joel77
    My next pre amp purchase will be the Tone Beast.
    ...
    Another consideration in the Sytek MPX-4Aii.



    Interesting that the first touts its transformers as being the source of its greatness, while the second does the same for its absence of transformers.
     
    Makes it hard on us mere mortals.  This is definitely a case where you need not only to listen before you buy, but to use them enough so you can even tell the difference, and how one or the other might help in you setup.

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    sven450
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/10 07:31:05 (permalink)
    It is funny, as no matter what I end up with, I will make it work.  They each have their charms and I will be really surprised if I am disappointed with any of the choices discussed here.  That being said, I'm leaning towards the either the Warm Audio "regular" pre, or the Tonebeast.  

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    joel77
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/10 09:31:19 (permalink)
    I applaud your attitude Scott. We can make excuses for our equipment, or we can simply make it work. When the budget allows and the real need arises, we add more flavors.
    post edited by joel77 - 2015/04/11 11:45:26

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    AT
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/10 10:09:48 (permalink)
    The WA 12 (regular pre) is great, but a half rack unit.  I use it as much as the ToneBeast mostly because it is simple - plug and play with only one knob to mess w/.  I find I use the TB w/o a transformer as often as not, since I don't have a comparable clean preamp.  Or use it to put some extra saturation hair on a sound that needs it.  Otherwise, I just use the WA12 which sounds nigh on perfect DI'ed w/ bass (esp. w/ some 1176 compression).
     
    Since you are paying double for the TB, just be sure to realize it is like a pick-up.  It is big, hard ride and eats gas and you ain't usually using it for what it was made for.  But if you need to load something up, there ain't anything else that will work.  Whether all the bells and whistles on the TB are worth it using them once or twice on a song are a question only you can answer.  Realistically, I probably use them about 10% of the time, tho I'd probably think I need to use it more if I didn't have it.
     
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    pentimentosound
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/10 10:11:52 (permalink)
    I'd say plan ahead now. Where are you headed? What is your goal?
      I have a PreSonus MP20 that I put BurrBrown opamps in. It was my first "good" or step up preamp from my Mackie 24-8. I added an ISA One (though I wish I'd gotten one with the AD card and plan to add that ASAP). Recently, I bought a Warm Audio WA76 and Tonebeast, and feel like I have moved way closer to my goal! I think one  of the best options of the Tonebeast is you can swap out one of the opamps! I just added a John Hardy 990C+ (replacing the X18 Jensen one) and the fact that you can take the Tonebeast up from where it is, already, is a no brainer! I haven't seen anything about anyone using the Seventh Cirlce Quad 8, the Trident one, nor the Ticha, but am hoping that will change the more the TB-12 filter out into "studio world"!
    http://www.warmaudio.com/products/tb12-tone-shaping-microphone-preamp/
           I'd love to aim for the new Millenia's and then "down the road, a bit" Chandler and Great River. But I might try  the Black Lion B173- $549. Those are my current "nicely rounded out" front end plan. Of course I have to upgrade my I/O,  but that is an exciting proposition!
          Get the best conversion, I/O, preamp, and mic you can afford NOW and work on your space. I bought a ton of stuff for my last "big" set up(home studio for hire), hoping to impress clients with my gear list. What a waste of time that was! Impress yourself and your results will inspire you (and your clients, if you do that).
     
    Hmmm, well I can certainly tell the difference between decaf and regular, this morning! LOL
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    #20
    pentimentosound
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/27 09:16:56 (permalink)
    This chart is pretty handy for plotting your preamp future.
    http://www.prostudioreviews.com/mic-preamp-graph.html
     
    It doesn't include all the available preamps (!)but it will help you sort out which ones you are aiming for.
    Michael
    #21
    sven450
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/27 11:28:11 (permalink)
    nice chart.  that was cool

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    pentimentosound
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/27 12:30:53 (permalink)
    Glad you liked it. I think so, too! I would love to see it updated with more preamps listed on it.
    There's one for mics, too.
    http://www.prostudioreviews.com/mic-graph.html
    Michael
     
    #23
    batsbrew
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/27 12:43:28 (permalink)
    those graphs are really old,
    but most of those preamps (and mics) are still 'best of show' or valid today.
     
    there are new preamps that were not even suggested at the time of those reviews (dates back almost 12 years now)

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    #24
    SvenArne
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/27 12:47:56 (permalink)
    AT
    Whether all the bells and whistles on the TB are worth it using them once or twice on a song are a question only you can answer. 



    I pretty much constantly have all the switches set to the same position on my TB-12. And I can't say with a straight face that I'd be able to tell the x731 opamp apart from the x18 in a blind test (under normal non-clipping conditions), much less the steel/nickel trannies or the vintage/clean capacitors.
     
    Go to Zenproaudio.com and check out the Clip-a-Lator. Gives you some idea of the order of magnitude of the impact such electronic components bestow upon a signal.
     
    What sold me the TB over the WA is the form factor (I've come to hate half-rack units), and the output attenuation knob which gives me all the flexibility I could ask for in a preamp! You can dial in some nice edgy fuzz with the vintage settings (tone button in, x731 opamp, steel tranny and vintage caps) and overdriving the input, without clipping your converter!
     
    Sven
    post edited by SvenArne - 2015/04/27 13:01:21





    #25
    pentimentosound
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/27 13:20:38 (permalink)
    Yes, sven, most (?) of those differences are subtle. The output attenuation is a biggie and for me, getting closer to a Hardy M1 was a selling point, though I did buy it and a WA76 used. The deal was too good to pass up.
     
    Rob. I use those old charts as a reference, to "place" preamps/mics that I am considering now, even unlisted new ones. I was glad you mentioned your A Designs. I remember seeing it when it came out, but never checked into it, till you listed it as one of yours.
     
    I find it easier to recall things visually, so the chart is "my speed".
     
    Michael 

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    #26
    sven450
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/27 16:49:05 (permalink)
    If anyone is interested, I went with the Warm Audio WA12 and have been mightily impressed so far.  It produces thick, rich, detailed sound on every source I have tried.  The DI I'm getting out of it for bass is especially delicious, but as my vocal pre it is also lovely.  This isn't saying much as I'm just a home hobbyist, but other than guitars, it is the nicest bit of gear I own and it sounds it.  I am a happy camper.
     

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    #27
    AT
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/28 01:31:16 (permalink)
    Once you've spent some intimate time with a good preamp you get it.  Once you hear it you understand what people are talking about (and yea, some of it is pleasing placebo).  It is subtle but real.  And once you start getting good sounds out of it, you have a certain comfort that the hardware is not going to let you down or cause a problem and realize a great weight of questions have been taken off your shoulders - is it the hardware?  It ain't and there is nothing between you and the sound except you.
     
    happy hunt'n!

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    #28
    olemon
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/28 10:09:30 (permalink)
    AT
    It is subtle but real.  



    I could definitely hear the difference between my AT-2020 and my new/used AKG C214 mics, but that's it.  I know the C214 is an improvement and I now have to move on to improving my vocal performances and my mixing.
     
    Of course, that won't keep me from trying out a tube preamp for some more subtle enhancements:)

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    #29
    musicroom
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    Re: new preamp 2015/04/28 12:24:28 (permalink)
    Good discussion here!
     
    @sven450, you made a great choice in my opinion. I have the Warm TB and I'm amazed at dimensions this preamp adds to a mic'd source. Those preamps could sell for much more and I think most people would understand a higher price after using one. For the price point the folks at Warm chose, it is affordable for all of us to have a boutique preamp sound.
     
    As mentioned, the ISA One is also a keeper.
     
     

     
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    #30
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