Temporary Mixdowns

Hello Everyone,

I wanted to ask what you all do for what I call temporary mix downs?

Meaning, I am still tracking a song, maybe just some core tracks (drums, bass, chords, etc...) 

When I track, I usually don't peak any individual track over -8db and my master bus usually won't peak over -4db (which I feel is OK, correct?)

So I am asking, what is the best way to make a temporary mix down for the car so it is loud? Just throw a limiter on the master bus and turn the threshold until it peaks at around -0.2 db or something?

Sometimes I like to drive around with my songs as I am working on them to help develop new ideas in my head.

Would love to know what others do.

Thank You,
Adam

Woodyoflop
What you just explained is basically what i do. I understand your thought process on that because i do a similar process. However i usually don't do it on the master bus. I usually export the project as is then import it to my master template then kind of do a real quick, Rough master. Nothing to crazy and like you, i dont like to go over -2 sometimes ill push to 0. Just to kinda boost it and glue everything together. My experience with just adding it to the master bus over the project... to me anyways... didn't sound as good. I prefer to export then re import to either a separate project that i use for mastering or to maybe re-import it to a track on the same project then add my limiter, compressor or whatever i so choose.

 
Thanks for the reply.  Hmmm, that doesnt make sense though.  Why would the limiter sound better just because it is in a different template?

You say you export "as-is", then import into your mastering template, then use the limiter - but wouldn't that sound just like adding a temporary limiter right into the master bus in the original project file?

Woodyoflop
I can't honestly give you a fact based answer on that. It's simply from my experience. It could be that i just THINK it sounds better so my brain tells me it does. Its a possibility. But yes i export as-is then re import either to a seperate template i have pre-made for master or reimport it into the same project on its own track to apply what i want. 
 
The most reasonable explanation i could give for this anomaly is that perhaps when its in the project. The coding from the DAW might interpret it slightly different when applying it to all the tracks individually from the master bus than it when it does from a single wav file when all the tracks are in a sense already smashed together. The EQs might be interpretted differently perhaps.

i think it is mental man :)

all the tracks sum into the master the same as it is if they are in 1 track imported back in :)

Ha. it most likely is. Im sure someone will be along soon enough to de-bunk what i just said as well lol. As far as your process tho. It is similar. Sound has a lot do with the way you perceive it. I do also have a hearing issue, my left ear has a deadspot where i cannot hear much in the 5000 range. So my right ear makes up for it and my left might interpret the frequency more lower or higher in range. It does cause issues sometimes panning wise as u might imagine lol. Thats when i have to look at meters to make sure the right really isnt louder than the left ;) lol.

gswitz
I usually play the song through, measuring average loudness in an EBU meter (I use RME DigiCheck which comes with my interface). That way, I have a predictable volume level.
 
I add compression to get the mix fairly close. I might do a bounce a little soft to find the few errant spikes and use some volume automation to contain them.
 
Then I limit 1-2 dB at the most and bounce to tracks.
 
I use this as a guide for the amount of compression. I pick an average loudness, then compress to within a 1-2 dB, then I limit.

 
If you are only limitng 1-2db, i would imagine you are tracking too hot, no?  what is your peak before you do your temporary master?

alewgro

Woodyoflop
Ha. it most likely is. Im sure someone will be along soon enough to de-bunk what i just said as well lol. As far as your process tho. It is similar. Sound has a lot do with the way you perceive it. I do also have a hearing issue, my left ear has a deadspot where i cannot hear much in the 5000 range. So my right ear makes up for it and my left might interpret the frequency more lower or higher in range. It does cause issues sometimes panning wise as u might imagine lol. Thats when i have to look at meters to make sure the right really isnt louder than the left ;) lol.

DUDE, i have the SAME problem in my ear... I want to say mine is more in the 2000 range, but still.   How did that happen to you? 

Mine was an ear infection, it hurt so bad... and it created a deadspot in my ear.  I was depressed for a long time because it effects how I hear music :(

Im in the Army, im infantry and specialize in Mortars.. So aloot of Booms and shooting without ear protection unfortunately, but im young and thought i was invincible and now recognize how close it was to destroying any chance i had in music lol. Wish i would have worn some damn Ear-protection like we were sopposed to. My left ear now has tinitus.

I track and mix at K20.... leaving all kinds of headroom. When I need to present a rough mix to anyone else, or for myself to listen in different environments I apply a limiter on the main out and kick the volume to K-14. That gets the volume closer to other reference tracks yet still retains most of the dynamic range.

I never change the K System reference level during any production. One could go from a lower level to a higher level but I never do it in production.  It is not good.  If I start a project at K -20 then I finish it there with a K-20 pre mastered mix.
 
Mastering is the best way to covert a K-20 mix to say a K-12 mix. You start by adding 2dB in the editor and then the other 6 dB in the mastering stages that follow.
 
Firstly you open the K-20 track in an editor. You can easily hard limit all the peaks there to -3 dB and add 2 db of rms gain right there to the track without changing any dynamics.
 
Then the following three stages of mastering apply eg EQ, Compression and limiting. It is easy to gain 2 dB in each of those stages. None of them doing much but all adding up to a further 6 dB of gain.
 
You will end up with a punchy loud K-12 master in no time.  You will never get it that good by suddenly altering ref levels during a project and have to recalibrate everything at that level.
 
In a way it is best to do everything at K-20 because you can so easily turn that into a K-16, (iTunes level)  K-14, K-12 or even higher as I do with K -10 masters.  And for my hip hop friends I push stuff up all the way to K-8 but not so much these days. For broadcast you can leave a K-20 master alone because it often works out to about -22 LUFS anyway.
 
In answer to the OP if I am working at K-14 I just generate a rough mix at K-14 and not sweat where the volume control ends up in the car.  Does not matter.  If I am working at K-20 then I generate a rough mix at K-20.  I can quickly open the editor and hard limit everything to -7dB  (and that won't be limiting too many peaks anyway)  then adding 6 dB of rms gain to simulate a  K-14 master.  Rough and ready but gets the job done.  In the editor I sometimes add a touch of compression and limiting and add a little rms gain and it is up to K-14 very quick smart.  I don't alter my recording system calibration, just how I prepare the rough mix before it is burned or copied and goes out for testing elsewhere.
 

Sorry, but I am not familiar with the "K" reference, can someone explain?
 
What "Span" (free) should I be downloading?
 
Thanks all.

Very good, thanks.
 
Is there a free input metering plug-in?
 
Something that would tell me what is coming from my MOTU 8Pres, as I have two of them.
 
I never use Sonars meters when tracking and only view the Preamp meters, but would love to see what is actually coming in to Sonar.
 
If so, where would I put this, with regards to Sonar and viewing such input meters when tracking?
 
Thanks

I feel the K-metering system sounds too low.  They say to master at K-12... but I swear almost every current song I throw into a a K-meter is like 2 to 3 db over K-12.  It seems like current music is being mastered at K-10 or something.

I agree about a K12 master not being loud enough also for some clients.  I work with other K levels which I have invented for mastering applications.
 
K-10 is a nice loud master and can still be punchy. It is just that there is only 10 dB of headroom for transients so they can start to have a not so snappy quality. It is where I master to one level up from K-12.  I have taken things to K-8 as well for some of the hip hop guys I have mastered for. Unfortunately they like it a little loud.
 
I am not going to make a K-8 master again. It might be loud but you are now really starting to destroy important qualities of the music and transient quality is one of them.
 
Once you try and attain levels higher then K-10 then the quality of the limiter really starts to take hold as well. PSP Xenon is fantastic for this sort of work. You can even shape the sound of the transients by how you adjust it. But you need to spend $250 on a limiter and be prepared to drive it pretty hard.
 
There are some standards in terms of LUFS being more ideal around the -16 LUFS. This is good for iTunes etc and many other delivery mediums. A consistent K System K-14 master produces very close to -16 LUFS so it is literally perfect for that.
 
A good CD to listen to is Steely Dan's 'Everything Must Go'  It is mastered around -11 to -10 and it sounds great. The perfect balance of loudness rms wise plus transient snap on things. It has a DR reading of 10 as well.  I still think a K-14 master has a great balance of volume rms loudness and transient quality.