mourningpyre
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 21
- Joined: 2014/10/22 10:33:43
- Location: Kiev, Ukraine
- Status: offline
MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
It's better than previously, but I still use Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 to create all of my MIDIs. There is just something about the old format being faster and easier to use and I can't quite put my finger on it. I wanted to appeal to all you guys/gals here for your input. Do you think that MIDI editing was easier in previous editions of Sonar? If so, what would you like to see come back to make it easier in Sonar Platinum or any future editions of the software? I'm in the process of writing down my notes; I'll post them soon. Anyway, what are your guys' opinions? Here is a screenshot of the ol' CWPA9 in action, by the way. I just recorded this track a few days ago. It runs just fine on Windows 8.1 64bit. No problems at all. I guess that is a testament to good development. :) 
post edited by mourningpyre - 2015/05/16 03:10:27
|
John
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 30467
- Joined: 2003/11/06 11:53:17
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/15 20:22:14
(permalink)
I'm not sure why you would prefer Pro Audio 9 for MIDI over Sonar Platinum. I have Pro Audio 9. I haven't used it in a very long time. In fact I went to Logic when I was using it looking for a better MIDI editor. These days not having used Logic for almost as long I can say that the new Sonar is superb in editing MIDI. It retains all the useful things that were in Pro Audio while giving a new much easier way of working. The Smart Tool implantation is great and Pro Audio is brain dead in that regard. There is no useful comparison between them.
I supposed, each to their own. However, I reject your premise.
|
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14070
- Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/15 20:43:40
(permalink)
John, you can't discount muscle memory.  I've logged a zillion hours on Rapture, and when Rapture Pro came out, even after many hours of checking it out I felt the interface was a major step backwards. However technical glitches notwithstanding, I've started to wrap my head around the interface and am finding it's just...different, and with some helpful improvements. I suppose that once I've logged a zillion hours on Rapture Pro, I'll find Rapture klunky.
|
Teds_Studio
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 761
- Joined: 2011/12/21 01:00:42
- Location: AR
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/15 21:04:47
(permalink)
Craig, I just purchased Rapture Pro last night. In your opinion...would you say that starting new with Rapture Pro might be a "plus" for me...as I have never really messed with Rapture very much at all.
I will be learning Rapture Pro from scratch instead of going from the older Rapture.
I am also curious as to whether the long load time has been addressed. I've read a few threads about this "problem" since I purchased it. I haven't even installed it yet, thinking I might need to wait until a fix...or is it already fixed?
Thanks
ASRock X99 Extreme4 MB....Gigabyte GeForce GTX 960 4 GB DDR 5.....Intel i7 5820k 3.3 Ghz....Corsair RM850i power supply....3 Seagate 1TB SATA III drives....32 Gig G.Skill Ripjaws DDR4 3000.....Win 10 Pro.....Sonar X1 Producer Exp & X2, X3...Platinum....Superior Drummer 2 & 3 w/ N.Y. Vol 2 SDX.....Sony VEGAS Pro 11.0 32 & 64 bit Pro 12.....Sony VX2100.....Sony HVR-Z7U....Sony HDR-CX130....Alesis HD24....Behringer X32 console....Focusrite 18i20....JBL LSR2328P studio monitors with LSR2310P sub.
|
Doktor Avalanche 
Max Output Level: -32.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4294
- Joined: 2015/03/26 18:02:02
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/15 21:11:07
(permalink)
Rapture Pro is like a bad beta at the moment it was released too early and badly tested. However it works and makes music, in 3 months time when the service packs are out I have no doubt it will be excellent. Cakewalk has already stated they are fixing the issues so this makes me very optimistic.
I would not waste time learning the earlier versions, they have their own issues which won't be fixed. The only option is to progress forwards whatever obstacles may come your may IMHO.
FYI There have been no service packs for rapture pro yet.
|
John
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 30467
- Joined: 2003/11/06 11:53:17
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/15 22:00:47
(permalink)
I can't recall a thread getting so off topic so quickly.
|
rabeach
Max Output Level: -48 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2703
- Joined: 2004/01/26 14:56:13
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/15 22:05:43
(permalink)
John
I can't recall a thread getting so off topic so quickly.
you sent it there....:-) I don't use the piano role view much if ever, I use notation software to build midi but I like the note icons in pro audio 9 easy to pick them and plop them. I don't see how sonar plat is better just different. But since I don't use it that much my opinion doesn't have much weight behind it. IMHO note icons were removed prematurely to fit a new scheme. I hope more people will post, it is a good topic for discussion.
|
Doktor Avalanche
Max Output Level: -32.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4294
- Joined: 2015/03/26 18:02:02
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/15 22:15:19
(permalink)
Yeah I just realised it wasn't the OP asking the question I apologise for taking part in thread hijack.
|
Teds_Studio
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 761
- Joined: 2011/12/21 01:00:42
- Location: AR
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/15 22:35:41
(permalink)
I really don't see the problem. Where's the hijack? My gosh...it was a simple question about a subject that Craig mentioned. Guess I'll look elsewhere for answers.
ASRock X99 Extreme4 MB....Gigabyte GeForce GTX 960 4 GB DDR 5.....Intel i7 5820k 3.3 Ghz....Corsair RM850i power supply....3 Seagate 1TB SATA III drives....32 Gig G.Skill Ripjaws DDR4 3000.....Win 10 Pro.....Sonar X1 Producer Exp & X2, X3...Platinum....Superior Drummer 2 & 3 w/ N.Y. Vol 2 SDX.....Sony VEGAS Pro 11.0 32 & 64 bit Pro 12.....Sony VX2100.....Sony HVR-Z7U....Sony HDR-CX130....Alesis HD24....Behringer X32 console....Focusrite 18i20....JBL LSR2328P studio monitors with LSR2310P sub.
|
Doktor Avalanche
Max Output Level: -32.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4294
- Joined: 2015/03/26 18:02:02
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/15 22:41:38
(permalink)
Craig isn't the OP and he wasn't really talking about Rapture Pro he was talking about muscle memory and using that as an example. Never mind. The topic is about pro audio vs sonar/how easy is midi editing in sonar. You need to visit the cakewalk instruments forum and check out the threads. Besides I hope my answer was useful.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/05/15 22:50:17
|
John
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 30467
- Joined: 2003/11/06 11:53:17
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/15 22:54:05
(permalink)
Doktor Avalanche
Craig isn't the OP and he wasn't really talking about Rapture Pro he was talking about muscle memory and using that as an example. Never mind.
The topic is about pro audio vs sonar/how easy is midi editing in sonar.
You need to visit the cakewalk instruments forum and check out the threads. Besides I hope my answer was useful.
That is exactly right. The only reason I made a point about this was I believe the OP has a good and interesting point of view. it deserves discussion.
|
czyky
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
- Total Posts : 193
- Joined: 2003/11/26 19:22:17
- Location: libertyville, illinois
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/16 00:25:22
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby mourningpyre 2015/05/16 03:13:48
For sure the physical editing changed style changed between Audio and Sonar, but I don't know if it got any better, just different.
However, that being said, there have been some great additions, such as the intensity of the color scaling with the velocity of the note. That one feature has had a great effect on my work (hopefully for the better). And now the velocity bars match the colors as well, woo-hoo!
The ability to see velocities of only selected notes is a big plus for me as well. I don't think that was in Audio?
The 3d look is a nice-to-have. Haha, that screen print from the OP, of the 3d-Not Audio screen brings back memories!
Still some clunkiness in Sonar that surprisingly have never changed since Audio, like the ponderous amount of work to select tracks, or, in the Screenset model, to KEEP tracks selected.
Also, sort of a cheat, but I devised a handful of CAL scripts back in Audio to assist my midi editing. They still run as expected in SPlat, so for that, the different editing models are non-issues. (As long as CAL keeps being my PAL!)
I guess, in my case, midi ENTRY (typically from a keyboard--the musical kind) ranks about the same either way, Audio or Sonar (although, Audio was a long time ago, and my memory only is reliable back to---wait, what day is it?). When it comes to midi EDITING, I have to give Splat the edge, there is more informative feedback about the events.
|
SimpleManZ
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
- Total Posts : 157
- Joined: 2014/10/21 00:07:34
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/16 00:45:35
(permalink)
I surmise looking at the ancient Sonar version it looks somewhat familiar to what we got now. Music represented in a 'piano roll' for MIDI: It is blocks of colored boxes in rows and columns.
Somewhat like comparing Microsoft Word of 18 years ago to what we have now.
The most important issue for me is, when I am done filling those boxes with musical data.
The audio engine of the ancient past Sonar compared to present day. Unless the OP exports the midi tracks into Sonar Platinum; what's the point.
|
mourningpyre
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 21
- Joined: 2014/10/22 10:33:43
- Location: Kiev, Ukraine
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/16 03:08:44
(permalink)
John I'm not sure why you would prefer Pro Audio 9 for MIDI over Sonar Platinum. I have Pro Audio 9. I haven't used it in a very long time. In fact I went to Logic when I was using it looking for a better MIDI editor. These days not having used Logic for almost as long I can say that the new Sonar is superb in editing MIDI. It retains all the useful things that were in Pro Audio while giving a new much easier way of working. The Smart Tool implantation is great and Pro Audio is brain dead in that regard. There is no useful comparison between them. I supposed, each to their own. However, I reject your premise. This is one aspect I'm getting used to still. I don't want to make the comment that 'CWPA9 is better than Platinum', because I don't think so. I merely have the 'feeling' that I can edit/create MIDI faster in CWPA9. Perhaps this is just due to me not adjusting to the new interface.
|
mourningpyre
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 21
- Joined: 2014/10/22 10:33:43
- Location: Kiev, Ukraine
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/16 03:12:07
(permalink)
Anderton John, you can't discount muscle memory.I'm starting to think that this is the case for me. Working in CWPA9 requires no thought. My hands work and the music comes out. Sonar Platinum requires thought as I'm still learning what thinks are different.
|
Bristol_Jonesey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 16775
- Joined: 2007/10/08 15:41:17
- Location: Bristol, UK
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/16 04:00:28
(permalink)
In my humble opinion, once you get to know the ins & outs of midi editing in Splat you will never go back.
It's really a case of getting to work with the Smart Tool because it is very Smart and you can accomplish mostly everything without having to switch tools.
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
|
williamcopper
Max Output Level: -68 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1120
- Joined: 2014/11/03 09:22:03
- Location: Virginia, USA
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/16 08:07:46
(permalink)
To the OP: for me, a heavy midi editor using PRV and Event List, there are some things faster in Platinum, others things that even as I get it into my muscle memory are still slower than in Sonar 5. I hated and never stopped hating the X series sonar, so Platinum is rather better than those.
|
promidi
Max Output Level: -66 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1220
- Joined: 2014/11/21 18:46:39
- Location: South Australia
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/16 08:31:52
(permalink)
mourningpyre
It's better than previously, but I still use Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 to create all of my MIDIs. There is just something about the old format being faster and easier to use and I can't quite put my finger on it. I wanted to appeal to all you guys/gals here for your input.
You too aye. I have sequenced MIDI files using Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 for the last 16 years. In my case, It is faster for mouse driven MIDI entry. Here is a specific example in Cakewalk Pro Audio 9. When you are in draw mode in the CPA9 PRV, you simply hold down the mouse button to drag the note to its final location. With Sonar Platinum, you have to hold the "ALT" key while in draw mode to achieve that convenience note placement method. I don't see this changing any time soon. I am slowly trying to change my workflow to cater for Sonar's way of doing things and I'm getting there (and Sonar is Awesome). However, for my bread and butter MIDI files, Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 is my "go to" sequencer for this
|
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/16 20:58:20
(permalink)
A few years ago Theodor Krueger demonstrated how quickly Sonar 4 performed He would not upgrade to 5 because of the increased need to pay attention to the interface. He eventually moved to Studio One. I am not happy with the need to constantly be changing to another smart tool for MIDI and audio editing. (Pressing any control key is changing to another tool.) For audio: In 8.5.3: I can edit clips, transients, and envelopes without changing to another tool via menu or control key. This is efficient. X+ has too many menus. Everywhere. And the REQUIRED need to memorized too many shortcut keys and the incessant need to look to the keyboard to be assured the wrong key is not pressed erasing my world in one swell foop. The best improvement would be for me to be able to create a tool similar to 8.5.3. But I don't see how that can be possible since the transients, the clips, and the envelopes all exist in their own universes. Take a look at the Sonar vids: https://www.youtube.com/user/TheodorKrueger/videos
|
SquireBum
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
- Total Posts : 347
- Joined: 2013/06/26 13:23:55
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/17 04:54:41
(permalink)
I do not believe it is possible to develop a DAW that fits every user's needs and workflow requirements. One of the most customizable DAWS on the market is Reaper and the biggest complaint about Reaper is that you must spend so much time customizing it to fit your workflow. That's why users need to demo multiple software offerings and use the one that works best for them, even if the software is several versions old. There is nothing wrong with using an old version of software as long as it continues to work on the current OS. The latest and shiniest model may not be the best for every user. YouDontHasToCallMeJohnson
A few years ago Theodor Krueger demonstrated how quickly Sonar 4 performed
He would not upgrade to 5 because of the increased need to pay attention to the interface.
He eventually moved to Studio One.
The reference to Theodor Krueger is a case that reinforces my point. One of Theodor's YouTube uploads ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMSTuza40Kw) demonstrates a set of very well thought out feature requests that he would like to see in Studio One. The most interesting thing to note here is that every feature in his request list already exists in the current Sonar product. -- Ron
Cakewalk by Bandlab, Sonar Platinum x64 2017.10, X3E, X2a, X1d, 8.5 Windows 10 x64 AMD Phenom II X4 955 3.20 GHz 8 GB Ram Nvidia GeForce 9500 GT Echo Gina 3G
|
Kalle Rantaaho
Max Output Level: -5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7005
- Joined: 2006/01/09 13:07:59
- Location: Finland
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/17 05:50:20
(permalink)
SquireBum
I do not believe it is possible to develop a DAW that fits every user's needs and workflow requirements. One of the most customizable DAWS on the market is Reaper and the biggest complaint about Reaper is that you must spend so much time customizing it to fit your workflow. That's why users need to demo multiple software offerings and use the one that works best for them, even if the software is several versions old. There is nothing wrong with using an old version of software as long as it continues to work on the current OS. The latest and shiniest model may not be the best for every user.
-- Ron
Yes. One of the biggest, continuous complaints about SONAR was that the GUI was too cluttered. Then more functions were moved to dropdowns to tidy the basic view. Then people started complainig about too many dropdowns and extra clicks. I think its's very much the case of people wanting the default GUI to match their workflow instead of having to study and customise the software to your liking, thus being more or less forced to change the workflow. Then again, if you have to concentrate on not changing workflows, you can never change/improve/develop anything. I'm very much an "old dog". I have so long breaks in music making, that what I've once learned, I tend not to change. It would take too big a slice off my music time.
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
|
mudgel
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 12010
- Joined: 2004/08/13 00:56:05
- Location: Linton Victoria (Near Ballarat)
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/28 09:35:38
(permalink)
mourningpyre
It's better than previously, but I still use Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 to create all of my MIDIs. There is just something about the old format being faster and easier to use and I can't quite put my finger on it. I wanted to appeal to all you guys/gals here for your input.
Do you think that MIDI editing was easier in previous editions of Sonar? If so, what would you like to see come back to make it easier in Sonar Platinum or any future editions of the software?
I'm in the process of writing down my notes; I'll post them soon. Anyway, what are your guys' opinions?
Here is a screenshot of the ol' CWPA9 in action, by the way. I just recorded this track a few days ago. It runs just fine on Windows 8.1 64bit. No problems at all. I guess that is a testament to good development. :)
If I had to go from PA9 to Platinum I think I too would probably think PA9 was much better. I remember the change from 8.5 to X1 was radical enough let alone a change that spans 16 years. However as one who has updated with each version, each step is but a gradual one with the exception of 8.5 to X1 as I mentioned. But even that change was accomplished by going forward and never back again. Only way to go for me.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
|
mourningpyre
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 21
- Joined: 2014/10/22 10:33:43
- Location: Kiev, Ukraine
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/28 12:08:00
(permalink)
Good news there Mudgel, I did exactly what you did. I just forced myself to only use Platinum. Obviously there were a lot of good reasons to do this right off the bat, and as I continue to work on songs and MIDI in Platinum, it is getting easier and faster. I haven't opened CWPA9 for the last 3 projects I've done. I think it might be time to do a permanent uninstall.
Sad.. it's been a fixture of my PC since 2000. What kind of burial would be proper? lol
|
promidi
Max Output Level: -66 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1220
- Joined: 2014/11/21 18:46:39
- Location: South Australia
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/28 18:31:56
(permalink)
mourningpyre
Good news there Mudgel, I did exactly what you did. I just forced myself to only use Platinum. Obviously there were a lot of good reasons to do this right off the bat, and as I continue to work on songs and MIDI in Platinum, it is getting easier and faster. I haven't opened CWPA9 for the last 3 projects I've done. I think it might be time to do a permanent uninstall.
Sad.. it's been a fixture of my PC since 2000. What kind of burial would be proper? lol
I wish I could do the same, but alas, I use a lot of controllers and NRPN data in my MIDI files. Sonar's way of displaying all controllers at once when you open a track's PRV makes editing MIDIs with lots of controlers prohibitively difficult. Until Sonar remembers the controller lane configuration when you open a new PRV (like CPA9 does), I will still be editing mt bread and butter MIDIs with CPA9 Personally, I would not be too quick to ditch CPA9
|
cparmerlee
Max Output Level: -67 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1153
- Joined: 2013/06/25 22:14:42
- Status: offline
Re: MIDI Editing in Sonar Platinum
2015/05/29 00:09:49
(permalink)
promidi
I wish I could do the same, but alas, I use a lot of controllers and NRPN data in my MIDI files. Sonar's way of displaying all controllers at once when you open a track's PRV makes editing MIDIs with lots of controlers prohibitively difficult. "Prohibitively difficult" is a very diplomatic way to put it. The interface is designed by somebody who had no idea what they were doing. It is 100% useless if you have more than a couple of controllers per track. With 2 or 3 controllers on a huge screen, you can edit one track at a time, but don't even think about selecting multiple tracks. Please see http://forum.cakewalk.com/In-PRV-controller-lanes-are-practically-unusable-please-fix-this-m3166007.aspx This has some suggestions that seem like they would be relatively easy to implement and would make a huge difference.
DAW: SONAR Platinum Audio I/F: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 gen2
OS: Windows 10 64-bit CPU: Haswell 4790 4.0 GHz, 4 core, 8 thread Memory: 16 GB Video: GTX-760Ti
Storage: Sandisk SSD 500GB for active projects. ReadyNAS 20 TB for long-term storagesonocrafters.com
|