Helpful ReplyFrontier Alpha Track

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frankjcc
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/24 12:14:58 (permalink)
The Marker fix worked perfectly, and while I was at it I also change the go to next marker to it's respective native function and that works better as well, it is faster to go the next markers like it is natively.  Thank you so much, I will test the fader now.

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frankjcc
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/24 12:38:39 (permalink)
The fader works!!! with fix from post#86 no more fighting back

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azslow3
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/24 14:31:46 (permalink)
Thanks! I will include it into the next update.
 
I hope that I can also solve the problem with disconnecting.

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gswitz
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/24 17:07:53 (permalink)
https://youtu.be/VtJ4ymXJRHE
 
In this test I try not sending midi out to the AlphaTrack in an attempt to show whether the screen update data causes the dropout.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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azslow3
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/24 18:57:28 (permalink)
Thanks! That mean I have to reduce the information I send to the display when you operate controls. I will make the modified version tomorrow and let you know. But you can help with good approximation: compare how fast AZ Controller update display with the speed of original plug-in. Can you notice some difference?
I am going to reduce data flow by half in any case (I always send upper line as well, while it is not changing in this mode), but may be I also have to reduce update frequency.

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gswitz
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/24 19:11:53 (permalink)
I just played with it and noticed some differences. First, when rotating the pot to change the pan, the original moves like 10-12% with each click, so quite quickly.
Yours moves 1% per click, so quite slowly.
 
Also, when the pot is double-clicked on the original, it resets the pan position to center. This is generally true. A double click resets the item to its default position.
 
So, while the update seems quick, because the movements are in larger increments, it is probably that the amount of data sent is less.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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subtlearts
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/24 19:24:43 (permalink)
Like in the original, there are two resolutions for the encoders (Pan, Send, everything else) - you click once to change between them. The selection persists on a per-encoder, per-mode basis. The original has a little asterisk in the display to indicate that the control is in fine-resolution mode; Alexey tells me he's working on updating the display code to get something like that working.
 
The double-click to reset to default value is a nice touch, I'd forgotten that and maybe it's not in the documentation. Possible, Alexey?

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azslow3
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/25 04:48:29 (permalink)
gswitz
I just played with it and noticed some differences. First, when rotating the pot to change the pan, the original moves like 10-12% with each click, so quite quickly.
Yours moves 1% per click, so quite slowly.

It is ~0.8% per click (1/127). Playing with endless encoders I have also noticed that does not works as fast as normal knobs with the same resolution. I am thinking to add more resolution choices then MIDI(127)/Fine(1000) as I have now. But 10-12% means you have like 9 positions for pan (left, center, right plus only 3 in between on both sides). Is original behavior so quantized?
 
I also plan "software acceleration" for encoders, like used for mouse moves.
 

Also, when the pot is double-clicked on the original, it resets the pan position to center. This is generally true. A double click resets the item to its default position.

The documentation was not explicitly mentioned that (or I have overseen). I understand now why Coarse/Fine is done be "press and turn" then, in case "press and press" is used to set default, "press" alone is not nice to use for anything.
 
Here are 2 problems: AZ Controller does not support "double clicks" yet (and I do not like the idea even for mouse), Sonar is no help with the default value for parameter. So what that default is for each controlled parameter has to be somehow "hardcoded". For 1-2 cases, like "Pan", that works. But not in general.
Original MCU plug-in has special (independent from ACT...) files with parameter mapping, including native "step" size and default value. Per plug-in per parameter. What I mean is that CakeWalk knows it is handy since 10 years...
 
So, sorry. This feature will be not available in the near future.
 

So, while the update seems quick, because the movements are in larger increments, it is probably that the amount of data sent is less.

No, the amount of data is still the same. But I have asked to compare display updates, not values updates. That is what influence the amount of data sent. At the moment, it is up to 13 times per second and it looks like AT is not able to handle that.

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subtlearts
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/25 05:22:16 (permalink)
Hey Alexey.
 
Yes, in the Frontier plugin the 'normal' encoder resolution changes Pan (for example) at 11% per click, thus 9 clicks will take you from center to full right or full left. The 'fine' resolution seems to be between 1% and 2%.
 
I feel like it's not really necessary to make it exactly the same as the original plugin, since that was just some programmer at Frontier's best guess as to what would be useful. If people have gotten used to it, they will notice that it's a bit different in your plugin perhaps, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was better - I think the point should be to make it efficient to dial in a precise value quickly. I think if Fine resolution were 1% and Normal something like 6%, it would probably be best - I think turning from center to full pan should be accomplished in one twist, which is not possible with your current Normal resolution.
 
More resolutions might work, but would also add complexity so I'm not sure it's really necessary and might not really improve overal user experience; I think trying to find the optimum two values would be better. Personally I find the Frontier values a bit too coarse, and your current values perhaps a bit too fine, so somewhere in the middle (as per my proposed values above) might be the sweet spot... I would experiment with different values myself, but I can't (yet) figure out where they are set. In the Logic tab they are just referenced - 'RightRes. Pan:Normal', 'RightRes. Pan:Fine' and so on.
 
With regards to double-clicking for parameter reset, I agree it's a can of worms that might create more problems than it's worth. But what about shift-click? Can we modify the encoder-click behaviour with shift? I know this is tricky at the moment as the shift functionality is already tied up with Trim. However, and I proposed this before on your site,  the entire Trim control could be moved to a second 'page' of the Pan mode, which would be more consistent with the way other modes work, and also free up shift-encoder-click for (maybe hard coded) Pan reset.
 
Whatever, just thinking out loud, hopefully it's helpful, maybe not... 
 
Finally, with regards to the update speed - it's odd that the frequency of updates should cause disconnects on one AT but not on others - I haven't had a single disconnect in all the time I've been testing your plugin, which is a lot (I am using it full-time in production at this point). So it's not quite true that the device can't handle 13 updates per second across the board. Either some units can (mine) and some units can't (gswitz's?) - or something else is causing the problem.

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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/25 06:54:20 (permalink)
@Subtlearts,
 
While the double press might have been arbitrary, I believe it was created to fix the problem of not being able to return Pan to 0. For some reason in the original AlphaTrack Sonar Plugin it is hard to bring Pan back to dead center. It is always off a little. I think that is why they implemented the double-press return pan to 0.
 
I only ever used this feature on Pan, so to tell the truth I don't know of it works on the FX Bin faders which can have new default values set. I can try it for you, Alexey, if you care to know.
 
@Alexey,
I agree with Subtlearts that it doesn't matter if you implement double-press. I was only remembering the behavior. I was also noting the difference in granularity of the changes.
 
Alexey, I'm afraid we are putting you to a tremendous amount of work. I hope you are not pushing yourself too hard.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
subtlearts
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/25 07:44:26 (permalink)
Of course, it's handy to have a return-to-zero, at least for Pan, if nothing else, and I know what you mean that it was almost impossible to get it to exactly zero from the controller - I would often end up just going and double-clicking or ctl-clicking on the on-screen knob. I do think it's a useful thing to be able to do, but if double-click is technically not feasible, maybe there's another way to implement it. Hence my suggestion of moving Trim control to a second page in Pan mode (as there is a second page in the other modes, accessible via a second press of the mode selector button), and using shift-encoder-click as a hardcoded return to zero for Pan, and possibly anything else that makes sense.
 
On the other hand, if the encoder adjustment values are whole numbers, it might be easier to land on exact values, including zero or center, which would make the whole thing kind of moot...
 
I didn't mean that the double-click was arbitrary by the way, I was referring to the resolution of the encoders adjusting Pan etc - the exact values of 'normal' and 'fine' adjustment modes in the original plugin were arbitrary and do not need, in my opinion, to be replicated exactly.
 
And yes, as always, Alexey, thanks for your hard work and attention to detail on this, and absolutely no hurry to implement these details...
 

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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/25 07:52:37 (permalink)
@Subtlearts,
 
I get you on the pan change value per click appearing arbitrary, but I'm a little doubtful. I've written a lot of code in my life too. If I was arbitrarily picking a value to change it to, I wouldn't pick something that couldn't return to 0 or that moves at even increments. The fact that it it doesn't makes me think that it might be even in midi values and not in percentages (but why wouldn't this return to zero nicely?).
 
So, maybe it had to do with the midi drop-outs? Some sort of change that had a reason.
post edited by gswitz - 2015/05/25 08:11:31

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
azslow3
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/25 08:32:32 (permalink)
While you was discussing, I was really coding... Not completely ready yet and I have to stop for several hours.
 
But to let you informed what is going on in my code:
1) new option for Set Value Action, the step size. From 0.2% up to 50% (with 0.2% increment). I will set some default in the preset for coarse and fine, and then you can test which exact value is the best. I will expose it in the preset generation dialog
2) I am going to use "long press" (for 0.5sec for example) for Pan reset (and only Pan at the moment). So, short press change resolution, long press reset the value. That sounds good for me: no shift mess (shift display other parameters), no fine/coarse change with "push plus turn" and no double clicking
3) there will be 1/2 "magnet" in the Endless mode. Quite complicated calculations exists for normal Knob mode to make it jumpless set "nice" values like 0.25, 0.5 and 0.75. But there was nothing for endless (I was not using them). I decide to make at least 0.5 sticky. It took me many iterations to make things work as expected for MIDI, so that can introduce some glitches in endless, but I will fix them once spotted.
 
Ok, I have to go. More this evening.
 

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subtlearts
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/25 08:40:33 (permalink)
Alexey, that's awesome! You're amazing. Long-press is much better, cleaner, don't mess with what's already working. If it seems like it's a good solution and not hard to implement we can look at putting it other places later - maybe send pan, for example.
 
The Magnet code sounds promising too, that might enable moving towards a 'perfect' solution on encoder resolution. Not that it's an urgent issue, but again, I appreciate your attention to detail and enthusiasm for finding elegant solutions...

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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/25 11:15:24 (permalink)
TY

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
frankjcc
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/25 11:19:24 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2015/05/25 14:17:09
I know we are over the double clicking thing, and I would always be against that anyway, but ever since I got my alphatrack, when double clicking things to return to zero like sonar does natively, I liked the idea but I hated the hard work to accomplish the task, I always felt that they should have made it be double touch.  This would have been so nice to use to return any control to it's default value.  like I said, I know we're past it now but if it comes up again, My vote will be double touch. this is the least strain and faster action.
 
Now this has got me thinking,  What if we made use of touch combinations, What I'm about to say I thinking of in realtime and there are hundred of ideas coming so I'll keep this short.  What if we can create new commands that are not possible right now without sacrificing any existing buttons.  touch two left encoders at same time, touch two right encoders, keep left encoder touched while touching middle, touch all three, double touch, tripple touch, two at a time, three at time.  I know I know this all seems so complicated and it probably is, but!! this is how Azslow introduced the AZ controller in the first place, he shouldn't have(just kidding) I'm loving it the way it is, And I sent flowers.

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azslow3
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/25 12:29:21 (permalink)
frankjcc
My vote will be double touch. this is the least strain and faster action.

As I have wrote, I do not like "double" actions. That is always "subjective" what is "double" and what it 2 sequential actions. Especially with touch. Example: "I think the resonance frequency is a bit lower..." (touching the control), "hmm" (releasing the control), "yes, just a little bit!" (touching the control, in your scenario the frequency is reset to default). Next thought will be not about the frequency, but about the person who has implemented that "feature"
 

What if we made use of touch combinations

2 general problems there:
1) you can use 2 hands to control 2 parameters at the same time. Examples: Freq/Gain, adjusting pan on several tracks (so your left hand is still touching left encoder for fast switching while right hand adjusting pan). I do not think you would like "side effects" there
2) I do not know how good touch is on Alphatrack, but during my short attempt to use Nocturn, I was "touching" near everything on my way to the control I was engaging. Display change - ok, but some changes inside Sonar...
 

I know I know this all seems so complicated and it probably is, but!! this is how Azslow introduced the AZ controller in the first place, he shouldn't have(just kidding) I'm loving it the way it is, And I sent flowers.

I do not say it is not possible! There is no special "double click" support, but everything enabled in Monitors is possible reaction. I just have arguments why I do not see it practical.
 
And in case you want some actions using touch without "upses", it is easy to add "F1+Left encoder touch" and so on. "Flip+Encoder touch" is already in use. Note there are already some side effects from touch. For example, when left encoder is touched in the strip changing mode, Fader motor is disabled (to avoid jumping during rapid track changes).
 
Flowers are "working" by doing nothing (no joke, since I have introduced that idea, my wife has not complained about me programming the plug-in... ). But in case your device will attempt to "work" based on the fact your hand is in the near, I do not think you will be happy.

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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/25 13:09:46 (permalink)
Thank you for this reply, I agree on all points mostly I considered all the accidental touches could really make a mess of things.   Delete idea

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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/25 14:14:10 (permalink)
frankjcc
I know we are over the double clicking thing, and I would always be against that anyway, but ever since I got my alphatrack, when double clicking things to return to zero like sonar does natively, I liked the idea but I hated the hard work to accomplish the task, I always felt that they should have made it be double touch.  This would have been so nice to use to return any control to it's default value.  like I said, I know we're past it now but if it comes up again, My vote will be double touch. this is the least strain and faster action.

FrankJCC, for me double touch might force me to stick to the AlphaTrack Controller Plugin because I would be hopelessly confused if, when trying to grab the control, I accidentally reset a value - even if it happened very seldom.
post edited by gswitz - 2015/05/25 14:21:09

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
azslow3
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/25 15:35:53 (permalink)
gswitz
FrankJCC, for me double touch might force me to stick to the AlphaTrack Controller Plugin because I would be hopelessly confused if, when trying to grab the control, I accidentally reset a value - even if it happened very seldom.

By nature of AZ Controller you can with several clicks on "Delete" button REMOVE any functionality. Introduction of not existing features is a challenging task, but "killing" existing is not
 
So, I have uploaded new test version. Too many changes to put into the "official" release directly. The version is b222. Do not forget to regenerate the preset after updating.
 
Changes:
  1. motor operation according to the "Plan B", with "Plan A" deleted. Please check there is no more unexpected moves and "fighting" after finger release
  2. marker movement changed to "native" commands. No "RTZ" as implicit marker, but since marker can be inserted at time zero, I do not see a problem with that.
  3. display is updated slowly during parameters changes. I have reduced data flow by half per update and I have reduced updates rate by factor 3. May be it is too pessimistic, may be still too optimistic. Please let me know.
  4. encoders speed/resolution is configurable during preset generation. Separately for Coarse and Fine mode. I put some values which are good for me on StudioMix. They can be not so good for Alphatrack. Report what each of you prefer and I change the default (you can test different values without regenerating complete preset: open Property Page, switch to the "Logic" Tab, turn encoder, select action  "Endless User, manual touch" with corresponding conditions (Mode, Resolution, Page, band) for the mode you are currently testing, change the resolution, the effect is immediate)
  5. HP/LP slope controlling should be better
  6. Pan (strip and sends) can be centered by long pressing the encoder. Not perfect, since it is really setting the value after you release the button (and not just after some time). That is AZ Controller limitation (yes, it still has some). In the future I can add some indication on display that the "time is over". In the long term future, I may be eliminate the limitation. "Long" is fixed by now (~0.7 second, the value I have found good for myself to not wait for too long and not too short for triggering reset by mistake during coarse/fine switching), but I can also add it as a generation time configurable parameter.
Thank you for testing! That part of the "job" is normally underestimated. Without careful beta testers even the best software is just useless collection of bits.
post edited by azslow3 - 2015/05/25 15:43:50

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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/25 17:20:58 (permalink)
Everything is excellent, including the pan centering function, I don't see why anyone cant get use to hold the button for about a 1/2sec and let go. The default encoder values should work for most scenario's. I love the way it pans, I can see for certain surgical eq cuts or something might need to be a bit finer in movement, but I wouldn't want my fine to always be that fine.  I'm happy the way it is.  
 
 

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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/25 20:40:18 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SF_Green 2015/05/25 22:05:28
https://youtu.be/HSxogbi3thI
 
It seems to be working great. I was still able to cause a device drop out, but it was much harder to cause and recovery is quick.
 
I noted that shift+mute does not mute all tracks but instead solo's all tracks.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/25 22:01:37 (permalink)
Thanks for the video update, gswitz.  Looks like things are coming along very nicely.  I think I might have to give it a try now.

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azslow3
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/26 07:29:41 (permalink)
b223 b224 is uploaded.
 
Changes:
* shift+mute should be fixed
* even more conservative setting for display update... But the whole "strategy" is changed (b224), so it should not be perceived slower. This update rate is configurable now. In case you still see disconnects, please regenerate the preset with slower setting (bigger number) for "Update speed".
 
I still see no hint either original plug-in update display slower/faster/with the same speed. That can be the key to understand what is going on.
post edited by azslow3 - 2015/05/26 13:13:06

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gswitz
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/26 20:59:51 (permalink)
Alexey,
 
It was substantially harder to cause a drop-out than it has been, but I was still able to cause one (after 10 minutes or so of madly twiddling the nobs). The recovery is quick, so I'm more than happy with the results. It is definitely an Edge-Case now. I wouldn't spend more time on it, if I were you. I was twiddling Lo-Mid again when I caused the drop-out. That is usually the one I'm twiddling when it drops. I don't know why Low-Mid would be more likely to drop than the others, but I had worked Hi-Mid for a long time before I switched to Low-Mid and Low-Mid failed for me.
 
I can confirm that the Mute + Shift Mute are working properly.
 
The screen update on the AlphaTrack seems very good.
 
Really, this is terrific work. I considered not telling you that I got a drop-out, but I figured you'd rather the truth. It's difficult to get and I also didn't think it was worth a video. If you want me to do a Video, let me know.
 
I was as testing 224.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
azslow3
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/27 02:32:46 (permalink)
gswitz
Really, this is terrific work. I considered not telling you that I got a drop-out, but I figured you'd rather the truth. It's difficult to get and I also didn't think it was worth a video. If you want me to do a Video, let me know.

Thank you! I prefer the truth.
 
I understand you are also a bit tired turning knobs waiting for crash. I think our "team" need some pause, there will be no activity on my side next 2 weeks.
But at some point please test either you still have it after setting let say "Speed 14" during preset regeneration.
In case I add the "original" display updates during value changes (with graphics), that unavoidably increase the traffic. And so it make sense to eliminate the problem completely before, while at the moment it can be tolerated.
 
It can also happened that Display updates are not "crash trigger" on there own, in case "Speed 14" is still does not work. I will carefully check LED update timing then.
 
As I wrote, that is not urgent. I will put b224 into release and we rest for a while.

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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/27 05:45:41 (permalink)
Alexey, this is brilliant. I was away from the studio doing rehearsals and shows for a few days, and I come back to all these nice improvements! Crazy.
 
Very nice to have control of the update speed and encoder resolution. Since I don't seem to have any trouble with dropouts, I can set my update speed to the fastest (so far so good), but if it helps someone else to set it slower, they can do that. Perfect!
 
I find the default resolutions perfectly functional for my needs, I will try tweaking them a bit just to test the functionality but so far everything seems fine on this end.
 
The fader is working perfectly here, no fighting, no strange movement. The long press for Pan reset is a great solution and works a charm - I noticed you put it on the Send Pan as well, thanks for that!
 
The shift-mute (and solo and rec-enable) are working perfectly, exactly as in the Frontier plugin and a nice addition.
 
So I'm a happy camper, and my PayPal account has a little something in it so I'm finally able to hit the flowers button... say hi and thanks from us for your wife's patience...

tobias tinker 
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/28 05:38:53 (permalink)
I have another little idea/request, hopefully simple (and maybe I can figure out how to do it myself)...
 
While 'normal' encoder resolution is great as a default for most purposes, it strikes me that it's a bit heavy-handed for EQ adjustment. Maybe, since the resolution persists for different modes, we could set the default resolution for te encoders in EQ mode to fine? Not a big deal, but I generally find myself adjusting one, then immediately going, that's way too much of a change, I need to go back to where it was and then switch to fine mode.
 
Also, the new HP and LP bands in the EQ are great, but I'm not sure the HP is the best 'default' band to start with - maybe that could also be set to start at one of the 'main' bands?
 
Neither is a big deal, I'm just thinking out loud based on my use of the plugin in a real (rather than testing) context...
 
EDIT... I was able to change the default encoder resolutions by switching the values for 'normal' and 'fine' in the logic tab of each encoder, which works fine. If anyone else cares, it's possible, if not, don't worry about it... also, while I wasn't able to change the default EQ band, I found a way to switch the default EQ 'page', so that on first click it goes to the 2nd page, with Band select and on/off. I find this more logical, rather than assuming I always want to start editing the HP, or whatever band was last selected. Click EQ once, make sure it's on the band I want to be editing, and that band is switched 'on', and then proceed to tweaking values...
if anyone's interested, it's on the Logic tab for the EQ button, last entry, change 'Page -> 2' to 'Page -> 1'
post edited by subtlearts - 2015/05/28 06:01:10

tobias tinker 
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azslow3
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/28 17:36:12 (permalink)
While correcting EQ is better done in fine mode, it will take many turns to set parameters initially. So I do not think any choice will work as the best for everyone.
 
Setting other default band or resolution is possible using special "initialization trick". Not yet in preset.

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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/28 17:56:36 (permalink)
For sure. I just find that I'm more likely to want to make relatively small adjustments, so the default resolution was not as useful to me and I inevitably had to change it to fine, so why not make that the default so it's already how I want it when I go to EQ mode? Works for me anyway.
 
Not important to change the default band, it was just a thought - actually HP is as good a choice as any, since filtering out low frequency on tracks where it's not important is a fairly common EQ task. But I do find that changing the default EQ page to '2' so I can select the band I want to work on right away, is a better approach for me.

tobias tinker 
music is easy: just start with complete silence, and take away the parts you don't like!
tobiastinker.com
aeosrecords.com
soundfascination.com
Sonar Platinum, a bunch of other stuff...
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