Helpful ReplyCD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs?

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petelaramee
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2015/05/23 21:36:12 (permalink)

CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs?

EDIT - I'm looking to create a CDR Master to send off for reproduction.
 
I'm using 8.5 PE.  I'm finishing the last of my final mixes/mastering of 12 songs.  I have them entered into a session and all lined up from 1-12.  Are there any tutorials to bounce these to one final CDR master?...showing how to set track markers?...and explaining how to name the tracks (so the CD will show the song titles instead of Track 1, Track 2, etc)? 
 
Any help would be appreciated.
 
post edited by petelaramee - 2015/05/24 03:34:42

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frankjcc
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/23 22:48:51 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby petelaramee 2015/05/24 07:21:33
Sonar is not your program for this level of rendering to cd.  Wavelab is a professional program for that, though it is not cheap.  someone mentioned they are still using pyro, which I bought years ago, but I don't remember how it worked, It did allow for what you are trying to do if I recall correctly.

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petelaramee
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/24 03:27:35 (permalink)
That blows.  It's not the answer I was looking for, but I appreciate the info frankjcc.  I just assumed I had the tools to do it since I have the "producer" version.  In the past I've brought my stuff to a local studio to create a CDR master.  I thought he was just using an old version of Digital Performer (which I thought was comparable), but I certainly could be wrong.  I didn't know you needed special software.
 
Thanks again for taking the time to answer this!
 

Pete 
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/24 05:10:10 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby petelaramee 2015/05/24 07:21:38
I use Sony's CD Architect

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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/24 06:52:46 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby petelaramee 2015/05/24 07:21:42
A final CD-Master is simply an Audio-CD. Not a data-CD.
Burn it as an "Audio-CD"
No pause between tracks.
If you want 2 seconds pause after a song, the song before must go 2 seconds longer with silence.
Simply cut the end of the song 2 seconds later.
Then you can send them to any company that makes cd-prodoction.
 
It does not matter how the songs are named, because the audio-cd knows no filenames.

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petelaramee
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/24 07:18:52 (permalink)
Thank you very much for your replies!

Pete 
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/24 13:27:47 (permalink)
+1 on Sony's CD Architect.  Like Jonesey, I use it and it does as great job.  Does exactly what you are looking to do and everything is redbook standard.  Not a real expensive piece of software (especially if you plan do be creating CD's for a while!).  Anyway.....good luck!

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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/24 16:24:28 (permalink)
i dont understand.. why cant you use Sonar for everything exactly?
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/24 20:56:30 (permalink)
alewgro
i dont understand.. why cant you use Sonar for everything exactly?


Sonar is a creation and mixing environment, Mastering requires a setup that's taylored to that task.  You can immitate a mastering session with sonar, but the more you learn about mastering a full album vs 1 song, you will find there is a different set of requirements than what we have available in sonar, Sonar would probably become completely unstable if they tried to make it all in one, it would cost a lot more money, and most people wouldn't even want all that complication to be added to their working environment.  Mastering is simply very different from Mixing.

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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/24 21:37:25 (permalink)
I just happened to use the cd function in sonar last night for the first time after 11 years of cakewalk.  It certainly is a bit simplistic in it's format, but honestly I was pleased at what I heard on my old walkman.   
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/24 21:58:00 (permalink)
fantini
I just happened to use the cd function in sonar last night for the first time after 11 years of cakewalk.  It certainly is a bit simplistic in it's format, but honestly I was pleased at what I heard on my old walkman.   




Which brings me to ask this question...why would anybody go about producing a CD at all?  Where would you sell it?  I grew up with vinyl, but I'm even convinced that even CD's probably have their best days behind them.  If you want to burn your own archive copies of your downloaded music, that's fine, but if you actually plan on selling (or even giving away) your music it just seems online distribution is the way to go.
 
 
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/24 23:06:54 (permalink)
ok, how about a digital album?   can we then use Sonar only?   When I purchased Sonar, I was under the assumption it was all I needed to make "release-ready" music!
 
Can you go into a bit further detail why Sonar is not good enough for mastering an album?  Also, what about a digital album only?
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/24 23:20:38 (permalink)
frankjcc
Sonar is not your program for this level of rendering to cd.  Wavelab is a professional program for that, though it is not cheap.  someone mentioned they are still using pyro, which I bought years ago, but I don't remember how it worked, It did allow for what you are trying to do if I recall correctly.




There's Wavelab Elements which is far cheaper and gets the job done nicely, but without a lot of the plugins and advanced features included in the full version.

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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/25 00:06:47 (permalink)
SF_Green
frankjcc
Sonar is not your program for this level of rendering to cd.  Wavelab is a professional program for that, though it is not cheap.  someone mentioned they are still using pyro, which I bought years ago, but I don't remember how it worked, It did allow for what you are trying to do if I recall correctly.




There's Wavelab Elements which is far cheaper and gets the job done nicely, but without a lot of the plugins and advanced features included in the full version.


The limitation to 3 audio tracks is why I didn't mention that version.

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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/25 01:10:33 (permalink)
I wouldn't use Sonar to create a CD master for duplication (I have Sound Forge, which comes with CD Architect), but I think you could if you want to. Just mix all your tracks and export each one as a separate wave file, import them back into Sonar (I would bring left and right separately into two mono tracks) in the correct order (leaving 2 seconds between tracks). Listen to the album for discrepancies in level and EQ. If you find outrageous peaks in a few places use a volume envelope to manually even those out. There are lots of online tutorials on how to "master," (there's a lot to it) and you can hang limiters and equalizers over the master bus to get your album sounding right (I'm assuming you have good monitors). Contact your duplicator for their requirements and export the file to whatever they recommend.
 
I'm not saying this is the best way to do this, but it should work, and if you've never done it before you will learn a lot. If you follow the link above to CD Architect you will see why a dedicated CD mastering application might be better.
 
Best of luck!

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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/25 01:20:20 (permalink)
SONAR will produce CD-format sound files.  What it doesn't do so well is edit those songs and string them into a prefab Red-book CD.  SoundForge and Wavelab etc. are specialized stereo editing software for just those tasks.
 
Sony is always running specials on their cheap "studio" versions, including SoundForge.  You can pick it up for less than $50, probably this memorial day weekend, I expect (I did get a email about specials).  Even the studio version should come w/ CD Architect, a professional CD authoring tool.
 
I use to burn audio CDs on Pyro, but it has been a long time and there are several versions of it.  There is freeware out there too, but I'd be wary of it.  Who wants pop up adds when you are trying to sequence your songs into a masterpiece?
 
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/25 01:49:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby petelaramee 2015/05/25 03:30:31
The problem is that whilst you can certainly burn a CD from Sonar, you cannot name tracks, insert track markers etc.
 
I import all of my finished songs (all of which are 32 bit exports) into an album/mastering project in Sonar, each on their own track and spread out along the timeline. I do all of my spacing in Sonar by nudging each track to an appropriate start time, adjusted for aesthetic appeal.
 
Then I do a 16 bit 44.1KHz export of the entire album
 
This is then opened in CD Architect where I insert track markers and insert such information as Track Title, Album Title, Artist Name etc, then burn the CD

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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/25 03:22:51 (permalink)
forkol
fantini
I just happened to use the cd function in sonar last night for the first time after 11 years of cakewalk.  It certainly is a bit simplistic in it's format, but honestly I was pleased at what I heard on my old walkman.   




Which brings me to ask this question...why would anybody go about producing a CD at all?  Where would you sell it?  I grew up with vinyl, but I'm even convinced that even CD's probably have their best days behind them.  If you want to burn your own archive copies of your downloaded music, that's fine, but if you actually plan on selling (or even giving away) your music it just seems online distribution is the way to go.
 
 


I grew up on vinyl and I too think the CD has had their best days behind them, but in the last 15 years I (or my various different bands) have sold a number of them.  And personally I like having a CD of the music I'm listening to.  So why not have CDs in addition to downloads?
post edited by petelaramee - 2015/05/25 04:08:11

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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/25 03:25:42 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
The problem is that whilst you can certainly burn a CD from Sonar, you cannot name tracks, insert track markers etc.
 
I import all of my finished songs (all of which are 32 bit exports) into an album/mastering project in Sonar, each on their own track and spread out along the timeline. I do all of my spacing in Sonar by nudging each track to an appropriate start time, adjusted for aesthetic appeal.
 
Then I do a 16 bit 44.1KHz export of the entire album


Awesome.  That's exactly what I'm doing.  I'll give Architect a try.  Thanks for the info.

Pete 
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/25 12:23:11 (permalink)
CDs are still important products for advertising - you are more likely to get a look/listen by sending out a CD than a link, for local/college radio or labels etc.
 
They are an important cash flow option for live shows.
 
If you don't need advertising or do live shows, you don't need CDs, except for your mum.
 
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/25 12:37:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby petelaramee 2015/05/25 18:27:48
With "only" Sonar we have made hundreds of CD-masters.
We digitize old vinyl and master-tapes for customers and make cd-masters für many thousends of CDs.
I do all Restauration, EQ, Compression and volume adjustment within Sonar.
Simpy export the wav-file form every single song to disc 44/16:
01 - Song 1
02 - Song 2
...
12 - Song 12
12 Songs are 12 wav-files.
Each song MUST have a little bit silence at the end, because of the pause between the tracks.
Then burn it with Ahead Nero (with NO pause between the tracks).
Just like this CD sounds - your production will sound the same.
 
You Need nothing else but Sonar, and a Programm like Ahead Nero to burn the Master-CD.

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petelaramee
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/25 18:28:40 (permalink)
THambrecht
With "only" Sonar we have made hundreds of CD-masters.
We digitize old vinyl and master-tapes for customers and make cd-masters für many thousends of CDs.
I do all Restauration, EQ, Compression and volume adjustment within Sonar.
Simpy export the wav-file form every single song to disc 44/16:
01 - Song 1
02 - Song 2
...
12 - Song 12
12 Songs are 12 wav-files.
Each song MUST have a little bit silence at the end, because of the pause between the tracks.
Then burn it with Ahead Nero (with NO pause between the tracks).
Just like this CD sounds - your production will sound the same.
 
You Need nothing else but Sonar, and a Programm like Ahead Nero to burn the Master-CD.


This is the kind of info I'm looking for.  I would not have left space between certain songs (especially ones that run together).  There are 1000 youtube vids showing how to mix & master, but I found one vid (Samplitute) to help prepare for CD replication/duplication/production.
 
Thank you, sir.
 

Pete 
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Keni
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/25 19:29:26 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
I use Sony's CD Architect


Me too...

As far as I know the current cd burning built into a sonar is not redbook (or is it now?)

Sonar can do all the audio work and burn basic one-offs but it is not a fully implemented CD assembly/burning software...

I don't know if Sony even makes/sells CD Architect and I think they now include its ability into DVD Architect...

It was not an expensive program (cd architect)...

If you don't have any cash to spend I'll bet there are a slew of such programs for free from cnet's http://www.download.com ...?

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petelaramee
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/25 19:54:54 (permalink)
It looks like iTunes will digitally name the songs?  Via Gracenote? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro57OCVsQNY
 

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Larry Jones
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/25 21:47:37 (permalink)
Pete - I think you'll need to barcode your product for Gracenote to catalog it. As before, I recommend you contact your duplicator and find out if they offer such a service and what format(s) they require.

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SF_Green
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/25 21:50:04 (permalink)
Yes, if it's in the Gracenote database.  I listen to a lot of off-beat stuff and am surprised when I rip CD's how often iTunes asks to send the info to Gracenote.

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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/25 23:51:09 (permalink)
Sonar does offer mastering FX and they are advertised as such. I don't think there is any reason why, if that's the road you wish to take, why you can't mix and master your tracks in your own studio and end up with a perfectly acceptable product. In fact I'm sure this is the way many mastering engineers have made their start. Just follow the advice of some of the above comments and watch as many videos as you can regarding the subject.
 
The reason I send my CD's off to have them mastered outside Sonar is:
1. My mastering engineer has a much better FX suite in his studio.
2. His studio is acoustically better equipped than mine.
3. He has a fresh set of ears, that I trust implicitly to, add (or subtract) parts of the tracks, lengthen or shorten the amount of silence between tracks, and/or order of said tracks.

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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/26 12:01:24 (permalink)
Thanks for the info about Gracenote and iTunes.  I'm waiting to hear back from the production company about naming the songs. 

Pete 
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/26 12:03:50 (permalink)
rebel007
Sonar does offer mastering FX and they are advertised as such. I don't think there is any reason why, if that's the road you wish to take, why you can't mix and master your tracks in your own studio and end up with a perfectly acceptable product. In fact I'm sure this is the way many mastering engineers have made their start. Just follow the advice of some of the above comments and watch as many videos as you can regarding the subject.
 
The reason I send my CD's off to have them mastered outside Sonar is:
1. My mastering engineer has a much better FX suite in his studio.
2. His studio is acoustically better equipped than mine.
3. He has a fresh set of ears, that I trust implicitly to, add (or subtract) parts of the tracks, lengthen or shorten the amount of silence between tracks, and/or order of said tracks.


I usually record everything at my place and bring all the tracks to a local studio to be mixed and mastered.  This is the 8th project I've worked with that same engineer.  I trust his ears completely.  This time I had him come and help me mix for a few days at my place.  I'm also having him come back to help me finish mastering and get the CD ready for duplication.  He doesn't know much about Sonar...I just want to make sure I have everything I need to finish this and send it off before he gets here.
 
Thanks to everyone for your replies!  Every one has been helpful.
 
 

Pete 
8.5PE, i7-2600, 16GB, 2TB HD, Mackie HR824s, 624s MKII, Mackie 1620i, Mackie MCU
#29
slartabartfast
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Re: CD Final Master. Naming and Spacing Songs? 2015/05/26 13:58:18 (permalink)
You can use the free application Imgburn to create a physical CD that will play in CD players, and use the cue file option to name and space the tracks.
 
http://forum.imgburn.com/index.php?showtopic=5555
 
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