Helpful ReplyYeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!!

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Anonymungus!
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2015/05/29 18:08:44 (permalink)

Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!!

   Even though I use SoftSynths & I don't record drums, I tried out Drum Replacer on a finished audio track by The Pretenders. It worked amazingly well and quite easy to use. I had no problem isolating the various drum hits with the filters.
   Good job Cakewalk!  
 
   Why does my spell-checker tell me I am misspelling  "replacer" ?

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Zargg
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/29 18:47:50 (permalink)
I believe that "replacer" is not a "real" word (then again, English is not my native language)

Ken Nilsen
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gswitz
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/29 19:00:07 (permalink)
How do you get the different replace elements to different midi notes?

Btw, I like it too.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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arachnaut
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/29 19:03:07 (permalink)
gswitz
How do you get the different replace elements to different midi notes?

Btw, I like it too.



There is a little MIDI note spot on the lower right corner of each of the DR filter/dynamics elements.

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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/29 19:03:49 (permalink)
I believe that you have to drag it to a MIDI track, if that was your question. 
Best of luck.

Ken Nilsen
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gswitz
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/29 19:06:48 (permalink)
When I do, all the lanes get the same note. I think enabling the different lanes, one at a time might be the trick.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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scook
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/29 19:10:10 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2015/05/29 23:50:58
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/29 19:11:48 (permalink)
Anonymungus!
Even though I use SoftSynths & I don't record drums, I tried out Drum Replacer on a finished audio track by The Pretenders. It worked amazingly well and quite easy to use. I had no problem isolating the various drum hits with the filters.
   Good job Cakewalk!  

 
I had no idea it could be used on a mixed track with more than just drums. I'll have to give it a try. And yes, I agree...it's pretty awesome.
 

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John T
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/29 19:25:09 (permalink)
Yep, hit on that idea myself earlier. It's pretty good for extracting MIDI beat data from songs you like. Works better on sparse and spiky material, of course; the Pretenders have exactly the right performance and production for this trick. I tried it on Around The World In A Day by Prince, where it worked really well.

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John T
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/29 19:34:29 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Panky Brown 2015/06/02 18:02:35
I'll tell you what, this is a really superb bit of tech, but more strikingly, perhaps, I think it's the best bit of user-interface and workflow design Cakewalk have ever done. Get the team who did this to make an AudioSnap 3 and I'll found a polytheistic religion devoted to their worship.
post edited by John T - 2015/05/29 20:15:37

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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/29 20:02:59 (permalink)
Everything John T said..
 
I have only had a few minutes to play around with it, but I am thoroughly impressed.
 
Ease of use, workflow, GUI, execution, results - all brilliant.
 
Well done Cakewalk.

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Anonymungus!
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/29 21:39:06 (permalink)
It seems the Region Effects are really stable. ARA

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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/29 22:46:09 (permalink)
I thiubn
Anonymungus!
It seems the Region Effects are really stable. ARA



I think at this point, Cakewalk has taken ARA further than anyone else.

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gswitz
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/29 22:52:34 (permalink)
http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20150506_Susan_02.mp3
 
I extracted the drums in this track using Drum Replacer from the direct guitar track.
 
Kinda messy, but easy and sorta fun at the same time.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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John T
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/29 22:53:43 (permalink)
Anderton
I thiubn
Anonymungus!
It seems the Region Effects are really stable. ARA



I think at this point, Cakewalk has taken ARA further than anyone else.


Yeah, astoundingly so.

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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/30 00:16:21 (permalink)
Wonderful, yes, but still it could be improved:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3229996

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tomixornot
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/30 00:26:51 (permalink)
Just a quick question regarding the Replacer dynamics :
 
1) using wave form as target, will it be a one-shot constant sound ?
 
2) the generated MIDI notes, will it be of constant or with different velocities ? (say to export it, and to fully utilize BFD various layers).

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arachnaut
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/30 00:58:10 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tomixornot 2015/05/30 12:13:08
tomixornot
Just a quick question regarding the Replacer dynamics :
 
1) using wave form as target, will it be a one-shot constant sound ?
 
2) the generated MIDI notes, will it be of constant or with different velocities ? (say to export it, and to fully utilize BFD various layers).




1) Yes
2) depends on the "Dyn" knob - it can follow the input dynamics or be a constant.
 
This is explained in the help file (hit F1 in the DR module and follow the help link to the panel descriptions):
 
"Dynamics. Scale the dynamic range of all triggers. Drum Replacer automatically tracks the incoming drum hits and adjusts the volume of the replacement samples according to the volume of the original hits. The valid range is 0-100%. The default value of 0% represents the trigger’s original velocity. Increase the value to add a more consistent feel to an overly dynamic performance. With a value of 100%, the replacement sample is played at a constant volume, regardless of the original track’s dynamics."
 
post edited by arachnaut - 2015/05/30 01:05:49

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Lord Tim
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/30 03:27:11 (permalink)
I've found DR fairly hit and miss.
 
On loops and pre-processed material it really shines. I was able to drop in a funky loop, overlay a more meaty kick and snare and even add percussion to it using DR. Seamless and incredibly powerful and effective, even more so when you extract the MIDI to use with other drum programs, or even other loops. Triggering a sub loop from a snare hit from another loop is insanely powerful. Kudos, Bakers! 
 
On live drums, it's been less useful for me.
 
The first song I tried it on already had the drums routed to busses with mastering grade effects on them. I think that had something to do with the fact that none of the generated DR waveform display actually sync'd up with the actual hits of the drums at all. It triggered fine and in time with the song, but if you're watching along, it's quite bizarre and your mind starts to play tricks on you, if you'd actually heard a missed trigger or not because visually it doesn't line up where you expect to hear a hit.
 
The second song I tried on raw drums with no processing, either on the tracks or in the busses. Much better and in sync this time.
 
However, for some reason a section of about 8 bars on the kick track was read in as random "drum stuff" rather than kicks like the rest of the track correctly showed, and obviously none of that part triggered correctly. The filter was something that really needed to be played with quite a bit too - the detection is based on the start of the pulse as to where it sets the sample off, and I found that if I set the filter too low, it had too much of a gradual build to the peak and the triggers went off early. Fine tuning that to get a solid attack on the waveform helped a fair bit.
 
The snare track was less successful. Because there's no sensitivity automation yet, any ghost notes or quiet hits were lost, and any loud bleed from a tom track would trigger as a snare. Not completely unusable, in fact, if you dragged the MIDI out of it, you could save yourself a LOT of work by having most of the work done for you and you could add or clean up the wrong hits in the MIDI track later, but overall not really in the same league as plugins like Drumagog.
 
But for a verison 1.0 of this utility, it's a fantastic start. I can see myself getting quite a bit of use out of this for any loop based stuff I do especially. 

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anotherpaul
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/30 03:59:33 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2015/05/30 09:46:55
Here's a quick tip for anyone that is a stupid as me. If your drum tracks are coloured black don't expect to see anything in the drum replacer window :) 
the foreground and the background are the same colour. Who would have known? Anyway after a few hours (it's ok I have heaps to spare) of trying everything but change the track colours  haha 
Anyway I know this won't have happened to 99+% of you but just incase

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/30 09:00:42 (permalink)
Lord Tim
The first song I tried it on already had the drums routed to busses with mastering grade effects on them. I think that had something to do with the fact that none of the generated DR waveform display actually sync'd up with the actual hits of the drums at all. It triggered fine and in time with the song, but if you're watching along, it's quite bizarre and your mind starts to play tricks on you, if you'd actually heard a missed trigger or not because visually it doesn't line up where you expect to hear a hit.

 
Hi, I'm not sure I fully understood your issues but one clarification. DR is a region effect. The signal flow for region effects is like this:
Raw Clip Data -> DR -> Track bus -> Track FX -> Other Buses .....
 
What this means is for DR to function properly, the raw clip data needs to be clean enough that DR can derive triggers from it. If you have your tracks routed to compressors and such on other buses then those may be compensating for the weak signal. To resolve that just pre bounce to a new track to get the processed signal and add DR to that. You may get better results that way.

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Lord Tim
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/31 03:51:17 (permalink)
Hey Noel, 
 
What I mean is the visual waveform wasn't lining up where the cursor was with the track itself.
 
When I ran my raw project, the timeline cursor would pass the exact spot in the track waveform picture as it did in the picture that DR was generating in the multidock, as expected.
 
The project that had the effects on it had very different positions between the track and the DR pictures. The track itself had no effects in the bin it all, just the outputs were assigned to busses which had effects on them. The track itself was raw sounds that were being converted into DR data.
 
Is it possible that because the output of the track after coming out of DR is going to a bus that has an effect that has as delay compensation on it, the waveform picture between the track view and the DR view in the multidock might be different?
 
post edited by Lord Tim - 2015/05/31 03:58:56

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#22
listen
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/31 06:55:57 (permalink)
I've been waiting for it & it for me has been worth the wait. Just what I needed for a song I've been working on with a client...  "Kudos to Cakewalk"

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/05/31 09:11:46 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Panky Brown 2015/06/02 18:05:09
Lord Tim
Is it possible that because the output of the track after coming out of DR is going to a bus that has an effect that has as delay compensation on it, the waveform picture between the track view and the DR view in the multidock might be different?
 

 
Interesting. Yes I think its likely that delay compensation is the reason for this. If you remove the (downstream) plugins that have delay does the waveform line up as expected?

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Lord Tim
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/06/01 09:42:18 (permalink)
Just testing this now and...
 
Yes, confirmed: Deleting any effects that needed delay compensation made the both waveforms line up. In this case it was a limiter on the master bus, and Perfect Space I was using on a drum reverb bus that were the culprits.
 
Useful knowledge going forward. 

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Anderton
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/06/01 20:52:17 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Panky Brown 2015/06/02 18:05:15
Lord Tim
Just testing this now and...
 
Yes, confirmed: Deleting any effects that needed delay compensation made the both waveforms line up. In this case it was a limiter on the master bus, and Perfect Space I was using on a drum reverb bus that were the culprits.
 
Useful knowledge going forward. 



I use processors with "lookahead" only during the mixing process. Keeps me from going insane. Well, more insane, at least.

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Lord Tim
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/06/02 00:20:01 (permalink)
The absolutely great thing about SONAR is how flexible it is with music creation. It's frowned upon (and for many good reasons), but I typically record, mix and master all in one fluid process and have had some pretty great results from it.
 
Typically, yeah - I totally agree. Get the basic tracks down first and then start piling on the effects later during the mix, especially for things like synths that rely on low latency for live playing that PDC just gives you all kinds of headaches with.
 
But I like to be able to go back and make adjustments to the edit, or the raw sounds or anything I like, even at the mastering stage. Is the kick drum too weak? Well, I have the option of adjusting the mastering effects, or re-EQing / compressing the track itself so it goes into the mastering effects better (if I'm happy with everything else), or even replacing the kick entirely with a new sample, or - in extreme cases - getting a new part recorded that works better with the arrangement (pretty rare for that to happen by mastering, but it's nice to think that it's an option if you're entirely stuck).
 
In the case of the first test mix I tried DR on, this was already a completed mix/master that was convenient to have open at the time, which is why all of those effects were in the busses. I'd typically want to get the drums edited and (if needed) re-triggered/reinforced first before getting to this stage, of course.
 
That said though, Perfect Space is a great sounding reverb IMO, and it could really be a potential gotcha for people who are running it if they wanted to add a little ambience on the drums so they can get into the vibe while tracking other instruments. Ordinarily for live-tracked stuff it wouldn't be an issue, but softsynths and now obviously DR as well, this is a big thing to consider!

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TremoJem
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/06/02 07:04:59 (permalink)
Thanks Noel, I now know why my now time marker does not synch with DR.
 
So, I should disable any processing to the track, buss and master that has the kick track in it that I am trying to apply DR to?
 
Once I apply DR successfully to all drums I want to apply it to, it is then that I can go back and re-mix everything...right, as it will now be completely different since I originally mixed it with the acoustic drum I originally tracked.
 
Now all of this stays with the original track, right?
 
In other words, DR is not adding a track and then I mute the original track, but instead is simply applying an effect to the original track, or a drum replacement effect.
 
And of course this is easily revisited at any time to adjust as necessary, regarding the mix of the original drum vs. the DR sample.
 
Trying to wrap my head around this. This is not my thing I guess and I might be better off using Audiosnap and making a midi track of each drum and assigning the drum of my choice from AD2 and then hiding the instrument tracks of the original drums.
 
Thanks

Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser
 
Most importantly...not enough time.
 
www.studiocat.com
jim@studiocat.com
 
#28
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/06/02 07:08:54 (permalink)
You could use the global effects bypass on the toolbar to temporarily disable fx, then make your change to DR (waveform should be synced) and then re-enable fx.
DR will always be in sync irrespective of the waveform display.

Noel Borthwick
Senior Manager Audio Core, BandLab
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#29
TremoJem
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Re: Yeaah! DRUM REPLACER is pretty awesome !!! 2015/06/02 09:53:30 (permalink)
You mean press E on the keyboard, or is there a shortcut I have missed on the toolbar above?
 
For the good of the project, when you understand my workflow...which do suggest, Audiosnap using AD2 to replace my acoustic kit, or, DR.
 
My goal, of course, is to have the best sounding kit.
 
I would think that I would keep the overheads and room mics to blend with the samples...although I have no idea what to expect.
 
My workflow is as follows:
 
I track each drum (12) using a close mic technique. I then use two overhead mics. I will soon be adding two room mics.
 
After tracking I then eq, compress, mix etc. all close mics to a Drum buss.
 
I do the same for the two L/R overheads...to their own buss.
 
These two buss's are then sent to a Main Drum Buss. Then to the Master.
 
Thanks

Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser
 
Most importantly...not enough time.
 
www.studiocat.com
jim@studiocat.com
 
#30
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