Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat

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Kamikaze
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2015/05/30 03:59:28 (permalink)

Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat

So 'Every little thing she does is magic' has popped up in paces a few times recently, and its a great song. And had a serach for the sheet music. There always seems a lot of inconsistencies on the sites regards the key. It's a pain for me as I have to transpose into 3 keys as it is, and this does not comes naturally to me, though it gets easier.
 From the same site, both listed under the piano versions, so should be transposed.
 


The first one is in D and the second in Eb.
When I look as this tab site, someone has written also in D, but with the use of Suspended chords, which sounds nice. But the sheet above in D desn't use suspended chords, but the version in Eb does (of course it doesn't matter if what key it's in, if they are suspended, then they are suspened) so no consistency on the Key or Chords.
http://www.e-chords.com/c...hing-she-does-is-magic
 

 
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    tlw
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/05/30 08:30:04 (permalink)
    Piano arrangements of rock/blues/pop are often pretty strange, with the harmonies worked out not as a repeating riff but by combining all the notes that happen at the same time then working out what chord that is. Somewhere I've a Rolling Stones book from the 70s that has over a dozen different chords in Honky Tonk Women which change almost every beat and have no indication of the actual riffs at all.

    As for keys, sometimes a key is picked because it better fits the 'classically defined' vocal ranges of bass, tenor, soprano etc. than the original. Or is easier to play on the piano. Or because whatever the arranger listened to the recording of the song on wasn't playing back at the correct speed. There's also the possibility that the sheet music is simply wrong.

    And then there's the countless recordings from the days before electronic tuners that aren't in tune with A=440Hz and fall between two keys. I've not checked, but if Every Little Thing was recorded somewhere between D and Eflat that might explain things.

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    #2
    Kamikaze
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/05/30 10:17:17 (permalink)
    It's a bit crap, if I learn a melody, I should be able to play along with the original recording. I'm expecting to by the transcript of the original song and it kind of sold that way, they haven't indicated otherwise. Unusually for the Police, this was composed on the piano in the first place and also featured keys.
     
    I think downloaded sheet music is overpriced as it is, so I at least expect it to be correct. 

     
    #3
    Moshkito
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/05/30 11:55:06 (permalink)
    Hi,
     
    I'm not sure that you are looking at music and its human factor.
     
    The music "notation" was divised wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy after the music itself, which should tell you that most music notation is an "approximation", and not necessarily the exact thing, and it is especially bad, when the interpretations by individuals enter into the fray of the music, which can be done live, but would not be necessarily accurate on paper at all.
     
    Listen to an opera, by different conductors, or singer even, and check out the major differences in them, not only in interpretation, but also in details.
     
    I've always thought, and I am not a student of "notes or chords" (or care to be, ever!), that music is about the "person" and not the notes and chords. TODAY, this is very visible with all the computer stuff that can tell you this note and that note by its sound and vibration (whatevahhh!!) and in the end, all it is doing is taking away the human feeling and desire and love for the piece of music. BUT, a lot of the music behind the person is getting hidden, also!
     
    To me, and I am not a musician, just a lover of music (!), this is important, and it doesn't matter to me if Jon Mc is playing Cm789d or Keith is playing 17 notes on the keys! It's the feeling and flow before it and after it that matters, not just one note or a set of notes, although in this day and age, we use that as an "identifier" for copyright garbanzos and farts!
     
    I, personally, and I AM trying to learn an instrument, do not see an issue here, but the more complicated staff should tell you that there is an interpretation with the note extensions, and you can go listen to the song and compare the two. And then you can learn the single notes and realize that the bending and stretching of the notes is the real issue. With that said, someone will comppose somthing on paper with all the extensions and bends and what not, and of course, most musicians will fail to "get it" and interpret it "correctly". It is much harder to interpret an individual feeling, and not likely to show on a piece of paper that well!!!! Remember that!
     
    One other thing ... when I saw Stevie Ray Vaughn, I found out something rather interesting ... the bass player, was a fun, nice goon, and he accidentally got his bass tuned a half down ... and Stevie gave him a look, smiled ... and they had a new song! THAT is musicianship and then some! But it should tell you that sometimes ... things happen, and the best musicians ADAPT ... !!!

    Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides! 
    #4
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/05/30 11:59:36 (permalink)
    Sheet music and midi files have ALWAYS been notorious at having incorrect and widely variable attempts at representing popular songs.
     
    When I was 7-8 and taking piano lessons, I would buy sheet music for a pop song, and want to learn to play it, but what they printed on the sheet music wasn't even close to how I KNEW the song actually went - I had a good ear.  I used to fight with the teacher all the time, because I would use the sheet music largely to get a general sense of the chords, but would tailor my playing of the song to better match what I could hear from the actual recording of the song.
     
    MIDI files have the same issues - particularly the free ones.  
     
    Further complicating things is that many times in days of old, tuners were not used, and/or the producer or engineer might speed up or slow down a song for either space or 'feel' (speeding a song up a little would take less space or time on an album, but would also alter the pitch).
     
    Lastly, singers are famous for wanting something instantly transposed to a different key, usually immediately prior to you being asked to play it live for them to sing to.  Grrrr.
     
    It will likely always be a frustrating issue.  I bought a really nifty program called The Amazing Slow Downer, for $50, that includes the ability to adjust the speed of playback of a given song, without altering the pitch - which along with its ability to loop through sections of a song file make it ideal for using to learn a song by playing along with it.  (you can also make pitch adjustments in 'cents' and such to compensate for slight tuning variations from recordings that had either not used a tuner or had their speed slightly adjusted for whatever reason, resulting in a pitch change.
     
    Bob Bone
     

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    #5
    Combo
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/05/30 12:07:09 (permalink)
    I think your expectations are a bit high, you should maybe take 99% of commercially published sheet music (other than classical stuff) with a pinch of salt and use it mainly as a guide to speed up your own learning of the song and confirm/amend what your own ears are telling you.   Unless it's produced specially as note-for-note (as in books of guitar parts/solo transcriptions etc) it will be aimed at a broad range of abilities and will probably be simplified, in a lot of cases this is unavoidable, not laziness or shoddiness on the part of the publisher.   Even with pros playing stuff done by pro transcribers/arrangers there will usually be room for debate over things like chord names, which are essentially a shorthand.    It's rare to get a commercially printed lead sheet or transcription that you could put straight on a stand on stage and play the tune from.  
     
    It's got better though, I remember in my teens buying sheet music for the Beatles, Hendrix etc that in retrospect was laughably bad and inaccurate, and wondering why it didn't sound like the record.

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    Kamikaze
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/05/30 12:07:41 (permalink)
    This is an simple 80's pop song, it should clear what key it's in and if it a a major chord or a suspended chord with an altered route. It's not a complex song. Someone looking to buy this is looking to buy how the song was composed. There is no consistence from the same music provider.
     
    If I was looking to play a jazz standard, I'd want the standard chord progression. I may alter the voicings and extensions to inject my own personality into it, but I want the standard to start from.
     
     

     
    #7
    slartabartfast
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/05/30 12:24:43 (permalink)
    Clearly the two exemplars you show do not represent the same arrangement, and it is likely that neither is an accurate transcription of the recording. Chord names can be problematic because they are contextual, the same notes may be called different chords to match historical rules for voice following. But the individual notes and rhythm of these two are just plain different, not just in different keys. There is always more than one way to do an arrangement, and the fact that the original song author is credited in no way indicates that this is how he played it or wrote it. 
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    craigb
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/05/30 13:24:57 (permalink)
    Bapu avoids this issue by only playing in Am...

     
    Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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    Moshkito
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/05/31 11:09:21 (permalink)
    craigb
    Bapu avoids this issue by only playing in Am...




    And getting us to dance to it!  !!! Yeah !!! Good exercise, too!

    Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides! 
    #10
    Guitarhacker
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/06/01 07:47:18 (permalink)
    robert_e_bone
    Sheet music and midi files have ALWAYS been notorious at having incorrect and widely variable attempts at representing popular songs.
    When I was 7-8 and taking piano lessons, I would buy sheet music for a pop song, and want to learn to play it, but what they printed on the sheet music wasn't even close to how I KNEW the song actually went - I had a good ear.  I used to fight with the teacher all the time, because I would use the sheet music largely to get a general sense of the chords, but would tailor my playing of the song to better match what I could hear from the actual recording of the song.
    Bob Bone



     
    Man is that ever the case!   I used to do the very same thing. Buy the sheet music to a popular song I liked and work it up on piano and have my piano teacher review it.  Often she would play it as written, to show me what it really sounded like. I'd tell her she didn't play it right....which led to some interesting discussions. I would rarely learn it like it was written and she would sit there tisking and shaking her head as I "butchered" the written version with the music I knew to be right from my memory.  
     
    I still have a bunch of sheet music from the 60's.... Cost me 25 cents in many cases..... wonder what they're worth today? I had actually considered framing some up as art and hanging them on the walls.

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    Beagle
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/06/01 08:52:51 (permalink)
    Guitarhacker
    robert_e_bone
    Sheet music and midi files have ALWAYS been notorious at having incorrect and widely variable attempts at representing popular songs.
    When I was 7-8 and taking piano lessons, I would buy sheet music for a pop song, and want to learn to play it, but what they printed on the sheet music wasn't even close to how I KNEW the song actually went - I had a good ear.  I used to fight with the teacher all the time, because I would use the sheet music largely to get a general sense of the chords, but would tailor my playing of the song to better match what I could hear from the actual recording of the song.
    Bob Bone



     
    Man is that ever the case!   I used to do the very same thing. Buy the sheet music to a popular song I liked and work it up on piano and have my piano teacher review it.  Often she would play it as written, to show me what it really sounded like. I'd tell her she didn't play it right....which led to some interesting discussions. I would rarely learn it like it was written and she would sit there tisking and shaking her head as I "butchered" the written version with the music I knew to be right from my memory.  
     
    I still have a bunch of sheet music from the 60's.... Cost me 25 cents in many cases..... wonder what they're worth today? I had actually considered framing some up as art and hanging them on the walls.


    I have thousands of sheets of sheet music because of needing them for church band and praise teams.  My wife takes old ones that I have discarded and uses them to cover small trash cans, small tables, etc with decoupage.
     
    In my studio I have a trash can with sheet music decoupage and in her office she has a small writing table and a trash can.  We've also given these as gifts to music teachers, professionals, etc.

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    #12
    Moshkito
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/06/04 10:21:20 (permalink)
    Hi,
     
    Beagle ... we need to repost the PDQ Bach scores now, and of course the corresponding TAB sheets.
     
    They are somewhere in the annals of the Coffee Hokum and if not I'll try to dig them up if I have them!

    Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides! 
    #13
    craigb
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/06/04 10:57:40 (permalink)
    Moshkito
    Hi,
     
    Beagle ... we need to repost the PDQ Bach scores now, and of course the corresponding TAB sheets.
     
    They are somewhere in the annals of the Coffee Hokum and if not I'll try to dig them up if I have them!





     
    Found one!
    (Note:  Works for the alphabet song too!  )
     

     
    Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
    #14
    Moshkito
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/06/04 13:51:14 (permalink)
    Hi,
     
    This is what I meant
     
     
    http://www.schickele.com/shoppe/tshirts.htm
     
     This is one of the pictures I posted once here on the CHB ... I think I had about 6 or 8 scores listed here including the other famous one where all the railroad trax cross each other! Excuse me ... staff trax or whatever they are called!
     
    post edited by Moshkito - 2015/06/04 13:57:26

    Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides! 
    #15
    UbiquitousBubba
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/06/04 14:37:59 (permalink)
    Sheet Music: Definition
    n
    1. (Music, other) the printed or written copy of a short composition or piece, esp in the form of unbound leaves
    2. (Music, other) music in its written or printed form
    3. (Music, other) common excuse given by keyboardists who aren't willing to play anything the guitarist might know
    4. (Music, other) the second highest cause of Drummer's Rage, a potentially life threatening issue. The primary cause is endless tuning.
    #16
    craigb
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/06/04 17:47:20 (permalink)
    Kamikaze

    Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat [sic]




    Because there are so many different locks. 
     
    (Duh.)

     
    Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
    #17
    dubdisciple
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/06/05 15:02:10 (permalink)
    There are many reasons that songs are sometimes transposed into different keys. The key that worked well for the original played by an entire band /orchestra may not work as well for a solo piano/guitar.  That can also work kind of in reverse as well.  Sometimes songs are created in one key to accommodate instruments with limited range.  i once re-wrote a song because I wanted to use a fixed key instrument. 
    #18
    Beepster
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/06/05 16:39:08 (permalink)
    Methinks, mayhaps, you expect too much from our beloved intertubes (and transcribers in general as well). I always take online tabs/sheet music (and even professionally released transcriptions sold at a premium) as mere guidelines that are useful in possibly pointing me in the right direction of how something is played... but never fully accurate.
     
    I have much more success at being accurate learning things by ear. If something isn't sitting right then I'll see what is available as far as transcriptions and they may (or may not) give me some ideas as to what I may be doing wrong.
     
    What is REALLY helpful to me is live recordings though because generally the performance is raw so you can hear what is being played as opposed to what has been edited/mixed into a dull roar. Video of a live performance can sometimes give a clue to where my hands should be. I have now discovered a neato little tool in GR5 (the Tape Deck thingie) that allows me to slow down recordings easily without changing pitch so I can pluck out notes of very fast solos which is cool.
     
    Then I can go back with all my new found data input and reprocess what I'm hearing and cobble together a better representation of what is going on.
     
    The one thing to realize too is that often times different renditions are being transcribed or there are alternate tunings in play which screw up the transcriber.
     
    Many online transcriptions are contributed to sites by... well I won't say amateurs but they are just uploading their interpretations for whatever reason (which is why the sites that publish them have rating systems). The pro stuff you buy in the music store is obvioulsy much more accurate but I gave up on that stuff ages ago because really there is still a lot of innacuracy as far as HOW stuff is played (because unless the actual artist is there to show them exactly how they played it the trascriber will interpretet it how THEY would paly it) and those darned things are bleeding expensive (also it's paper which is a PITA to lug around all the time).
     
    Obviously piano leaves a lot less up to interpretation than guitar (you can't play the same exact note in multiple places) but on paper there can be lots of variables based on the human producing the paper.
     
    Yanno?
    #19
    TheMaartian
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/06/05 18:02:05 (permalink)
    KamikazeThis is an simple 80's pop song, it should clear what key it's in and if it a a major chord or a suspended chord with an altered route. It's not a complex song. Someone looking to buy this is looking to buy how the song was composed. There is no consistence from the same music provider.
     
    If I was looking to play a jazz standard, I'd want the standard chord progression. I may alter the voicings and extensions to inject my own personality into it, but I want the standard to start from.

    That's exactly what I'd want to, except I don't, and the reason is...the 'r' word...reality. Or, in this case, more specifically, copyright law.
     
    For example, if someone were to sell you a MIDI file (and perhaps point you to a soundfont for your playback synth of choice) that EXACTLY reproduced the song as released by the original artist(s), they would be in violation of copyright law, should that piece be copyrighted. Except for Falco and a few other oopses, most are. Dude, why didn't you copyright "Der Kommissar"? Alles klar? Nein!.
     
    That is, also for example, why you don't find strumming patterns with most tabs (all free tabs?). That's "how" to play the song.

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    #20
    slartabartfast
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/06/05 22:14:12 (permalink)
    Copyright might well be part of the problem. The original song (basic melody) is owned by the author of the song, and in order to publish an arrangement, the arranger/publisher must get permission from the original author to create the transcription or arrangement. If he creates an exact transcription, then he does not own anything unique when he publishes it. The original author can sell the same right to lots of publishers, to produce what is essentially identical sheet music. Furthermore, it may be difficult to clear the rights for the actual arrangement of the song that was recorded, because there may be multiple authors. The band may have worked out the arrangement in practice, and each player may have a protectable contribution to the final result. 
     
    If, instead of transcribing/copying the single arrangement or the author's lead sheet, the publisher makes a unique arrangement, he has created a derivative work of the original, in which he has his own protectable right. Then if another publisher gets permission to use the original, the new arrangement is protected, and no other publisher can duplicate it without the permission of both the original author, and the arranger of the published altered version. The simplest version that will convey the melody and chord progression is often found in the "fake book" version(s), which is not what most publishers want to be selling, and which might all look enough alike to cause the various fake book publishers to claim infringement against each other.
    #21
    Moshkito
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/06/06 11:34:16 (permalink)
    slartabartfast
    Copyright might well be part of the problem. The original song (basic melody) is owned by the author of the song, and in order to publish an arrangement, the arranger/publisher must get permission from the original author to create the transcription or arrangement.
    ...


    The best one yet, though ... is this ... and it was in "Behind the Music" with The Police, when Andy showed that one song sounded terrible when he played it out of his stack, but it came alive with the stack and effects on it!
     
    The Edge, showed the same thing in the film "It's Gonna Get Loud" ...
     
    What you even see "transcribed" is actually an "approximation" since what Andy Summers is actually playing, in many cases, is not something that you even want to learn or consider, at all!
     
    Tricks of the trade? How's he going to copyright, compressor at 1, 2, 3 and 4 different settings, flanger with 3, wow with 3, chorus with 5 different settings and so much more that we can not even describe it on the sheet at all!
     
    To me, this is the best/worst part of a lot of modern music ... you don't even know that the actual notes being played ... are terrible if you were to hear them naturally!
     
    And even worse than that ... the new/inexperienced musician doesn't even know about that ... or consider it, as opposed to a classical musician within an orchestra and such. Even jazz is guilty in this area!
    post edited by Moshkito - 2015/06/06 11:41:31

    Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides! 
    #22
    craigb
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/06/06 11:39:38 (permalink)

     
    Speaking of Edge and his effects... Love this!

     
    Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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    Beepster
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/06/06 13:49:52 (permalink)
    The intro to GnR's "Welcome to the Jungle" comes to mind as does certain studio effects East Bay Ray from the Dead Kennedy's would pull.
     
    But yeah, The Edge's parts are essentially unplayable without all that extra gack slapping around. I THINK he is a decent guitar player but it's hard to tell and I can't be arsed really. Every now and then I'll see a vid of them playing live as young little punks and there's a lot more definition and I like it and I certainly don't DISLIKE the later wackier stuff. It takes some skill to pluck things just right to make effects respond in such a way but it buries the actual playing and that's... well annoying for someone who learns and ponders by ear.
     
    On some of these guit sims there are some The Edge (gawd that moniker annoys me) presets and they pretty much do what they should. They kind of make you realize though that you can play VERY little and get it sounding like him. Like pluck a note here and there and just make sure you time it right and it's in key and bingo bango... you just wrote a The Edge guitar part.
     
    IDK... conficting because the end result is nice enough and it's good song writing and I've gotta respect minimalism and creative use of technology BUT as a riffer/shredder it seems like a cheat on various levels.
     
    So really I have no freaking clue what my opinion is on "The Edge" as guitarist because he's so buried in weirdness and effects who the frack knows what's going on.
     
    And that kind of has me thinking of Alex Lifeson for some reason. Rush are just such a wall of trio and you listen to the guy's solos sometimes and it's all kind of weird and sloppy but works. Then he's just such a part of the cohesive unit that is Rush that his skill just kind of gets buried. But if you listen deep and understand how he's meshing himself into it all it's AMAZING.
     
    IDK man there are some strange players out there in mega hit bands. You hear them over and over and over again for your whole life that you kind of take them for granted but when you sit down to dissect what they are doing head asplosions occur.
     
    Makes all the high speed technical metal stuff seem simplistic in comparison because it isn't so obscure and textured.
    #24
    tlw
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/06/06 21:08:59 (permalink)
    Beepster
    The Edge (gawd that moniker annoys me)


    Probably sounded like a cool idea to an unknown musician in his late teens/early 20s. Not so great when you're 50, but I guess the downside of global fame is that whatever name your younger self became famous under is the name you tend to get stuck with. Young aspiring megastars, take note.

    Me, I reckon U2 are clearly good at what they do, but not to my taste at all.

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    #25
    TheMaartian
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/06/06 22:22:51 (permalink)
    tlw
    Beepster
    The Edge (gawd that moniker annoys me)


    Probably sounded like a cool idea to an unknown musician in his late teens/early 20s. Not so great when you're 50, but I guess the downside of global fame is that whatever name your younger self became famous under is the name you tend to get stuck with. Young aspiring megastars, take note.

    Me, I reckon U2 are clearly good at what they do, but not to my taste at all.

    Well, if my mama'd given me the birth name Dull Edge, heck, I'd have changed it, too!

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    #26
    Moshkito
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    Re: Why are keys on sheet music site not consistenat 2015/06/07 15:14:05 (permalink)
    Hi,
     
    I was just thinking that by the time you look at Fripp's rig, you'll probably think that his playing the "straight" notes would probably sound horrible, too!

    Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides! 
    #27
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