Quantize Advice

Hey everyone,
 
So this is something I've wondered about for a long long time and just never asked. I figure I might as well ask, especially after I wrestled with this last night.
 
So first of all, 90-100% of my music is MIDI based. So I'm not talking audio at all here. And of that music, probably 90-100% of that is always quantized after I play out some kind of idea on the keyboard. Usually I can get by with one of the standard quantize options (whole, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, everything else left at default). But then there are the times that I can't. Either a) quantizing ruins the rhythm of what I was playing, or b) some of it gets to be perfect while some of it is off, no matter how close I played it, and then I'm stuck adjusting individual note values to get it right.
 
Now like I said, it's pretty rare that I run into this with the kind of music I'm doing. But it does happen, and I'm curious where might be a good place to start in messing with the quantize options outside of what I mentioned above... OR do I need to start looking into the groove quantize options, which is something I've never done before.
 
Another thing I should mention, is sometimes if I really need this melody or beat or whatever to work, but quantizing just keeps messing it up, I'll just quantize the first and last notes and I'm good haha. Not pretty, but it works. What matters is that I can then drag copies that will line up with the bars... Because as long as it lines up on the bars, I know that what I PLAYED stays in beat with the other tracks... It just doesn't really haha. But I know there is something I should be learning that will make it more precise so I can properly use the quantizing features.
 
Thanks for any and all input. I know I have some learning to do :-)

See yea, I think I need to look into groove quantizing. Like I said it's something I've never even checked into before, and realistically, I'm making very beat driven music, so I'd imagine quantizing to the drum groove would make a lot of sense. I'm gonna have to look around though because when I searched youtube for Sonar Groove Quantize, everything I found was in other languages haha.

OK cool. So is this probably my best starting place:
 
http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR%20X2&language=3&help=EditingMIDI.38.html
 
(couldn't find it for Platinum for some reason but I don't think the dialog box has changed much)
 
And just start messing around with values to kinda learn how it affects it.

That's the one.
 
Try something, if you don't like it, undo it (ctrl + z), try something else.
 
The strength option should get you most of the way there without messing with the others but using it in conjunction with the Window parameter makes for a powerful feature

Bristol_Jonesey
That's the one.
 
Try something, if you don't like it, undo it (ctrl + z), try something else.
 
The strength option should get you most of the way there without messing with the others but using it in conjunction with the Window parameter makes for a powerful feature

Thanks, that's very helpful. I'll start with that when I start messing with it.

I often fumble around with MIDI quantizing, and end up either playing the part again or editing notes by hand (so many notes!). I know I have a lot to learn, too.
 
But for now I have a question that relates to this thread: Once I apply Quantize to an entire track, is it even possible to nudge individual notes, or will the quantize setting cause Sonar to ignore the manual editing on playback? Sometimes it seems as if that's what's happening, as I edit and edit and edit and it sounds different, but not better.

Larry, if you're talking Midi then yes, you can always go back in and nudge away afterwards. All quantizing does is move the notes you've selected to land on the grid - position determined by the settings.
 
 
 
 

polarbear
Well I'm not sure if there's another Quantize option that will continue to Quantize after the fact (like what you're describing as potentially happening), but what I do (select a clip or a section of notes, or a whole track), then Process -> Quantize... That's a one time thing, and you can then go in and adjust the notes manually after the quantizing is done.

Bristol_Jonesey
Larry, if you're talking Midi then yes, you can always go back in and nudge away afterwards. All quantizing does is move the notes you've selected to land on the grid - position determined by the settings.
 

So if I'm reading you guys correctly, "Quantize" is a one-time, destructive process? Does that mean I can delete the effect after using it, and the quantization will remain? If I can nudge MIDI notes on a quantized track, that's what it sounds like to me. (Note I am talking about using the FX bin to quantize an entire track.)

I guess it's dumb to think that one setting would work for an entire track -- although with drums it kind of does. So I'll have to start looking at cutting up certain tracks and working on the individual clips separately.
 
Also, Konradh, if you were addressing me, I've played in bands for decades, but I have no formal training, so I don't always know the right words, but I usually can figure out the concepts. In the days when I ran a commercial studio we used to say the the rhythm section came from the garage, while the strings and brass came from the university. Somehow, they managed to make music together.

I'm glad Konrad mentioned the triplet timing. I read this thread earlier but could not reply and I was surprised that the first reply did not recommend this to the OP. My guess is this is exactly what is trashing certain songs. As musicians we know how to play a shuffle but we often have no clue to why it's different. 
 I soon learned about it with my first drum machine. If you called up certain patterns the division was in 12 parts instead of 16 or 8.  The blues and a lot of country use the shuffle or triplet timing. A large chunk of tracks I work on require triplet quantizing. On a 4/4 grid they will show as 1/3 of the way off the line. 
Quantizing drums 100% will make them sound like a robot. You need to understand WHAT needs to be on the grid and what can be pushed around. I keep the kick and hi hats pretty much bang on but the snare seems to work best a hair ahead of the beat.

David I would say that your problem is OPERATOR ERROR. There's no manual I know of for that...Sorry!

Love Your Brother,
 
Shawn

Manual quantizer here, pretty much. I never bother with the groove stuff and I'll either a) fully quantize and leave it (it is computer music after all), b) fully quantize and then go into PRV and individually "nudge" notes slightly out of time or c) don't quantize at all and manually tweak each and every note.
 
It is time consuming, for sure, but I don't like the results from groove quantizing and I end up checking and tweaking anyway.
 
I like the nudge tool and I'll set mine to quite a low value (nudge 1 is 2 ms).
 
I will also set my snap intensity to a couple of notches off light.

Feel free to PM me any time to get help with a specific quantizing challenge.

stevec
And just to throw another option out there...
https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR%20X3&language=3&help=Plug-ins.3.html#1630168
 

 
Hmmm........ Makes me realise how much I'm missing out on when it comes to the tools provided 
 
Thanks for posting that, and not just for the quantize tool either...