Helpful ReplyUsing Reverb sends with Groups

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ULTRABRA
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2015/06/23 06:17:03 (permalink)

Using Reverb sends with Groups

If I'm mixing a song without groups, its easy to use one Reverb, and use sends from the various tracks.
 
If I'm mixing a song WIT groups - lets say 4 groups:  Keys, Guitars, Pads/Strings, and Perucssion.    Do I need to have one reverb instance for each Group, or can I still work with one reverb for the whole song?
 
Example
Omnishere pad, violin and cello, 3 tracks all routed to Pads/Strings Group, and the Pads/Strings group is routed to Master.
Do I make one reverb that is routed to the Pads/Strings group, and use this reverb for all the Pads/Strings tracks?
 
Similarly, all the drums and percussion parts go to the Percussion group, and I need a seperate reverb for that group, routed to the Percussion group.
 
Or, can I use one reverb that goes to the Master, and all Pads/Strings and Percussion go to this reverb.
 
I imagine that is using the latter way, if I turn down for exmapl the Pads/Strings bus, then I will not actually be turning down the reverb for the Pads/Strings, as its going stright to the Master?
 
 

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synkrotron
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/23 07:11:55 (permalink)
I personally work with just one reverb instance for a whole song.
 
I'm not using as many groups as you, but one, or four, it's generally the same, to me anyway 
 
I create a bus for reverb only (I might stick some EQ on there too perhaps).
 
I then generally create a track for each element, say pads, bass, synth lead, guitar etc. and each of those will have its output set to the master bus, with a send to the reverb bus (post effects bin). I adjust the send levels to taste and the pan to the same as the track pan.
 
If I'm in the mood I will create a drum bus and I'll set up my drum VSTi so that each of its elements (kick, snare, hats etc.) have a track each. Then each of those tracks output to the drum bus, not the master. I adjust the levels of each drum element on their individual track fader, but I set the pan in the drum VSTi.
 
The drum bus outputs to the master bus, with a send to the reverb bus. On the drum bus I will definitely have some EQ and perhaps some compression, but I am currently experimenting with parallel compression, so I have another send from the drum bus to yet another bus purely for compression purposes.
 
 
So, I guess the short answer is, yes, you can, in my opinion, have just one reverb for a whole project.
 
 
I'm sure many will disagree 
 
cheers
 
andy

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bitflipper
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/23 07:17:15 (permalink)
Convention is to use 1 or 2 reverbs (1 short, 1 long) for everything. Partly, that's just a holdover from the days when studios typically only owned one reverb unit. But it also helps create the illusion that all the instruments are being played in the same space.


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synkrotron
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/23 07:58:56 (permalink)
bitflipper
But it also helps create the illusion that all the instruments are being played in the same space.



Hi Dave, yeah, this is the main reason I just have the one reverb nowadays.
 
I should have mentioned that I set the reverb plug to an all wet setting, so that none of the dry signal gets through to the master bus from the reverb bus. Does anyone else do this? Or is it just me being a bit strange. It's not something I read somewhere... I just reasoned, in my own head, that if there is already a dry signal going directly to the master bus, why route any more through?

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dwardzala
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/23 08:25:33 (permalink)
Synkrotron, actually I think that's typical to set the reverb on the reverb bus to 100% wet.  That way you control the mix level of the reverb with the bus fader and you control the inputs to the reverb bus with each particular track send.

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streckfus
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/23 08:42:05 (permalink)
I too usually stick with one or two reverb buses; typically one for vocals and another for everything else.  I don't usually create sends from the instrument buses (vox, guitars, drums, etc.), only from individual tracks.
 
I think the vast majority of reverbs are set up as 100% wet effects on an effects bus, but QL Spaces in particular is designed to be an insert effect, and I've found that it does actually work better that way.  That one I'll toss on an instrument/vox bus.

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synkrotron
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/23 08:54:45 (permalink)
dwardzala
Synkrotron, actually I think that's typical to set the reverb on the reverb bus to 100% wet.  That way you control the mix level of the reverb with the bus fader and you control the inputs to the reverb bus with each particular track send.




Great stuff  I'm on the right track there then 

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Cactus Music
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/23 09:36:54 (permalink)
If you use a buss, then you are sort of obliged to put the effect in that buss's bin. 
Say you have 4 guitar parts that you send to a guitar buss. 
If you put the reverb on each track, then you turn the guitar bus down you'll end up with a wetter reverb because you are not turning down the amount coming from each track.  Try muting the Guitar buss.. see.. you still hear the wet reverb. So the reverb would have to go on the buss to behave as expected.
 
I've always stayed with using one reverb  for vocals and guitars etc. 
But I often use a "room" reverb on snare and toms. 
post edited by Cactus Music - 2015/06/23 09:46:54

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ULTRABRA
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/23 09:39:04 (permalink)
Thanks for the replies.     
 
The main reseason I'm querying the "one reverb" set up is that if I want to bring down the level of one of the group busses, eg take the drums down a few db, it will not affect the reverb at all, so the balance will be off.   If each of the drums have reverb on a send that is not connected to the group bus directly, then totally bringing down the drums bus level to 0, you can still hear the reverb of the drums.  If I use a different reverb instance for each group channel then bringing down the level of the bus will also bring down proportinately the level of its reverb.
 
Example routing - if there is only one Reverb instance, shared by all instruments, then its total output will be hearing the reverb of all instrumnets.
Drum A--- send --- Reverb Bus --- Reverb output to Master
Drum B --- send --- Reverb Bus --- Reverb output to Master
Drum A --- routed to Drums Bus --- output to Master
Drum B --- routed to Drums Bus --- output to Master
 
I can use the exact same reverb, just different instances, so keeping things in the same space.
 
I just would like to know if I understood this correctly.    
post edited by ULTRABRA - 2015/06/23 09:48:01

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synkrotron
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/23 10:15:13 (permalink)
I dunno... Might be a case of six and two threes...
 
I agree, that you can take the drum bus right down, and still hear reverb of the drums, which sounds a bit weird I guess. I don't think I have ever had a situation where I have removed drums from a song via a drum bus fader though, so this situation wouldn't exist for me personally.
 
For me, at least, just the one reverb instance is my preferred method because if I tweak its settings, I haven't got to remember to tweak any other instances of the same reverb elsewhere.
 
As ever... There's more than one way of skinning the proverbial cat 
 
I look forward to more input from our resident experts (which I am not, I hasten to add...)

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Mantofini
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/23 10:54:53 (permalink)
Isn't this solved with the "Post" button for the send? The post button makes the send post-fader which means that lowering the volume fader will lower the amount that is sent to the reverb bus. As long as you run all of your drums through one bus, you just need to create one post-fader send to the reverb bus. When you lower your drum bus fader, you will not hear any drums in the reverb channel. Apply this to everything in track and you can get away with only one reverb.
 
Does that make sense? Look at the signal flow chart in the Sonar pdf. It's page 888 for Sonar X3. Not sure what it is for Platinum, etc.
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synkrotron
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/23 11:10:56 (permalink)
Mantofini
Isn't this solved with the "Post" button for the send?

 
haha! Yeah... I've just double checked my current project and the reverb send from the drum bus is indeed post fader 
 
What a wally 
 
 

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ULTRABRA
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/23 11:58:26 (permalink)
@Mantofini  Well, I always anyway use post-fader.   It doesn't solve my query, because if I lower the fader on the group bus, its not connected to the reverb, so it doesn't lower the reverb amount.  Its the instrument itself (eg single drum piece) that is connected to the reverb, not the Group bus.
 
@synkotron   You SHOULD be using post-fader ... that's the default, and for most purposes is what people will need.  And above, when I mentioned bringing the Drums Bus down completely, I said that just to make the point that I would still hear the reverb of the drums instruments.    Because changing the volume of the drums bus fader is not affecting the reverb at all.  
 
Probably, I am not explaining myself very well :-)  
 
But, in conclusion, how I see it is, if I'm bussing instruments to Groups, and those instruments require reverb, then I need to have one instance of my reverb per Group.  I send all my drum pieces to the Drum Reverb, pads/strings to Pads/Strings Reverb etc, and those reverbs output is set to be their relevant group.  Then the fader on each Group will control overall volume of instruments sent there, AND their reverb proportinately.
 
 
post edited by ULTRABRA - 2015/06/23 12:38:10

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Mantofini
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/23 13:40:56 (permalink)
ULTRABRA
@Mantofini  Well, I always anyway use post-fader.   It doesn't solve my query, because if I lower the fader on the group bus, its not connected to the reverb, so it doesn't lower the reverb amount.  Its the instrument itself (eg single drum piece) that is connected to the reverb, not the Group bus.
 
@synkotron   You SHOULD be using post-fader ... that's the default, and for most purposes is what people will need.  And above, when I mentioned bringing the Drums Bus down completely, I said that just to make the point that I would still hear the reverb of the drums instruments.    Because changing the volume of the drums bus fader is not affecting the reverb at all.  
 
Probably, I am not explaining myself very well :-)  
 
But, in conclusion, how I see it is, if I'm bussing instruments to Groups, and those instruments require reverb, then I need to have one instance of my reverb per Group.  I send all my drum pieces to the Drum Reverb, pads/strings to Pads/Strings Reverb etc, and those reverbs output is set to be their relevant group.  Then the fader on each Group will control overall volume of instruments sent there, AND their reverb proportinately.
 
 




For it to work, you would need to route all of your drum tracks through the bus. The send then goes from the drum bus to the reverb bus. In other words, you would mix you drum kit into the bus to get the balance you want, then you add a send to set an overall ambience for the kit. If the send is post-fader, lowering the drum bus fader would decrease the amount of drums in the reverb bus.
 
Is there a specific reason you want sends from the individual kit pieces and not the overall kit?
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bluzdog
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/23 14:07:30 (permalink)
I set the output of all of the drums, the parallel drum compression bus (if I use one) and the drums reverb bus to the drum bus. Then add sends from the drum tracks to the drum reverb bus. Once you the drums levels are set the overall balance of the drums (including the reverb and the parallel bus) won't change by bringing the drum bus up or down. I usually have at least two reverbs going. I always use a dedicated drum reverb, if I want it to sound similar to the other reverb(s) I use the same plug-in with similar settings.
 
Rocky
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streckfus
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/23 14:10:11 (permalink)
bluzdog
I set the output of all of the drums, the parallel drum compression bus (if I use one) and the drums reverb bus to the drum bus. Then add sends from the drum tracks to the drum reverb bus. Once you the drums levels are set the overall balance of the drums (including the reverb and the parallel bus) won't change by bringing the drum bus up or down. I usually have at least two reverbs going. I always use a dedicated drum reverb, if I want it to sound similar to the other reverb(s) I use the same plug-in with similar settings.
 
Rocky


This! :)

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ULTRABRA
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/23 15:13:09 (permalink)
Mantofini
 
For it to work, you would need to route all of your drum tracks through the bus. The send then goes from the drum bus to the reverb bus. In other words, you would mix you drum kit into the bus to get the balance you want, then you add a send to set an overall ambience for the kit. If the send is post-fader, lowering the drum bus fader would decrease the amount of drums in the reverb bus.
 
Is there a specific reason you want sends from the individual kit pieces and not the overall kit?



Because I want different reverb amounts on each kit piece (or pad/string etc).

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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/25 16:10:59 (permalink)
I do mostly orchestral tracks and use on reverb for each section (strings, brass, etc.). I normally use QL Spaces and it has separate reverbs for each orchestra section. They are recorded in the same space but at different locations to theoretically provide the right depth. Seems to work for me.

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ULTRABRA
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/26 03:31:23 (permalink)
Hei Dave - so you make a bus for each section strings, brass etc, and then add Spaces as an insert on each section?   Or as a send so that each instrument going to that section can have its own level of the reverb?

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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/26 18:08:19 (permalink)
ULTRABRA
Hei Dave - so you make a bus for each section strings, brass etc, and then add Spaces as an insert on each section?   Or as a send so that each instrument going to that section can have its own level of the reverb?



I'll use strings as an example. I create an effects bus called String Effects and add an instance of QL Spaces on the bus. In Spaces I choose a hall preset bank and load the strings patch in the preset bank (there are separate patches for each orchestra section). I have an instance of Play for each string section (1st and 2nd Violins, Violas, Cellos, Basses). Each of those instances has a send set to the String Effects bus with the same output level. I do the same for Brass, where each instance of Play that is loaded with a brass section goes to a Brass effects bus loaded with the brass reverb patch, and so on. Since the presets in Spaces are based on the real-world locations of the different sections in the same hall, I can get a consistent reverb sound but with the real-world differences for each section. It is almost too easy to do.
 
As far as the levels go, because of the way that Hollywood strings is recorded, I set the send level for each string section the same. Other sections like brass and woodwinds are also set to the same send level as the strings. I might tweak the levels of an individual section for effect. Perhaps I want the trumpets to sound like they are further away for some reason. I'll increase the reverb level, decrease the dry output to the Master bus and add modulation to the trumpets to make them sound if they are playing louder but are further away. Adding modulation in this case changes the timbre to add more of the brass "buzz" you get at high volume levels.

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ULTRABRA
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/29 08:46:10 (permalink)
Thanks Dave for the explanation.    If you have sends but all at the same level for all the string instruments, why do you not just add the Spaces as an insert to the strings bus?

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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/29 14:03:09 (permalink)
ULTRABRA
 why do you not just add the Spaces as an insert to the strings bus?


 
You can pan the sends for each track as well as adjust levels for side to side and front to back placement in the mix.
 
Rocky
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Cactus Music
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/29 21:01:50 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby dwardzala 2015/06/29 21:23:46
I think the bottom line is one has to have a 100% understanding of your routing. 
You need to understand where it's going and what manipulating all those level (and pan) controls is going to do to the signal path. 
Sonar seems to follow the same logic we used in the past with a mixing desk. So anybody with past experience using a console is normally comfortable with this. I think newbies to sound and audio get muddled up pretty easily with all the weird terminology like, pre and post and insert and it would all be Greek to them. 
But then Sonar also tosses in options that were not usually possible with a mixing console, especially analog consoles. 

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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/06/30 19:08:59 (permalink)
bluzdog
ULTRABRA
 why do you not just add the Spaces as an insert to the strings bus?


 
You can pan the sends for each track as well as adjust levels for side to side and front to back placement in the mix.
 
Rocky




Thanks Rocky.That's exactly why. 

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#24
ULTRABRA
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Re: Using Reverb sends with Groups 2015/07/07 12:20:55 (permalink)
Cheers Dave.  
 
Just one more question :   You say above "As far as the levels go, because of the way that Hollywood strings is recorded, I set the send level for each string section the same. Other sections like brass and woodwinds are also set to the same send level as the strings." ------------ what level approximately are you setting the send level?

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#25
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