Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC!

Author
thechurchboi
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 79
  • Joined: 2015/01/22 19:11:49
  • Location: Trinidad and Tobago
  • Status: offline
2015/07/03 00:44:34 (permalink)

Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC!

I've always noticed a difference in (MIDI) latency response when I visit other studios using Mac computers.
Currently, when I record using my keyboard controller, the timing of the recordings always process a few nudges earlier but when I connected my Focusrite audio interface on an old 2010 MacBook, installed the driver and fired up Logic Pro 9 - without changing any settings - everything was just snappy! It was like moving from black & white to color.
 
Am I missing something? Is there something wrong with my computer? Is there a setting in SONAR that should or shouldn't be checked?

Windows 7 Ultimate x64, ASUS Z77 Motherboard, Intel Core i7 3770, 16GB 1600Mhz DDR3 RAM
SONAR X3e Producer, Focusrite Scarlett 18i8, Wharfedale Diamond Pro 8.1, M-Audio Axiom Pro 49
#1

17 Replies Related Threads

    brundlefly
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 14250
    • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
    • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
    • Status: offline
    Re: Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC! 2015/07/03 03:24:41 (permalink)
    The actual latency of MIDI messages and soft synth response should be pretty consistent. The big difference when playing soft synths will be outbound audio latency. What's you buffer size in SONAR, and what does it report for outbound latency under Preferences > Audio > Driver Setting? I don't know Logic, but I assume it has a similar configuration menu somewhere that will give you this info for comparison.

    SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
    Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
    #2
    thechurchboi
    Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 79
    • Joined: 2015/01/22 19:11:49
    • Location: Trinidad and Tobago
    • Status: offline
    Re: Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC! 2015/07/03 05:50:59 (permalink)
    Buffer Size: 5.0 msec

    Effective latency at 44kHz/stereo: 5.0 msec

    Input: 11.4 msec, 501 samples
    Output: 16.4 msec, 722 samples
    Total Roundtrip: 27.7 msec, 1223 samples

    Windows 7 Ultimate x64, ASUS Z77 Motherboard, Intel Core i7 3770, 16GB 1600Mhz DDR3 RAM
    SONAR X3e Producer, Focusrite Scarlett 18i8, Wharfedale Diamond Pro 8.1, M-Audio Axiom Pro 49
    #3
    Jim Roseberry
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 9871
    • Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
    • Location: Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re: Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC! 2015/07/03 06:18:36 (permalink)
    That's a huge amount of round-trip latency (and thus the lag you feel).
    Reduce the ASIO buffer size to 64-samples... and your round-trip latency will drop significantly.
     
    It's possible to achieve sub 5ms total round-trip latency under Windows (64-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k).
    The audio interface driver's hidden safety-buffer is the X-factor.
    If your audio interface uses a large hidden safety-buffer, it'll have high round-trip latency.
    If your audio interface uses a small hidden safety-buffer, it'll have low round-trip latency.
    Your particular unit offers decent round-trip latency (not particularly high... not super low).
     

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #4
    thechurchboi
    Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 79
    • Joined: 2015/01/22 19:11:49
    • Location: Trinidad and Tobago
    • Status: offline
    Re: Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC! 2015/07/03 07:05:16 (permalink)
    By the way, my audio interface is a Focusrite Scarlett 18i8.

    Thanks for the info, Jim.

    What should my roundtrip latency look like on average?
    post edited by thechurchboi - 2015/07/03 07:12:54

    Windows 7 Ultimate x64, ASUS Z77 Motherboard, Intel Core i7 3770, 16GB 1600Mhz DDR3 RAM
    SONAR X3e Producer, Focusrite Scarlett 18i8, Wharfedale Diamond Pro 8.1, M-Audio Axiom Pro 49
    #5
    tlw
    Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2567
    • Joined: 2008/10/11 22:06:32
    • Location: West Midlands, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re: Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC! 2015/07/03 09:10:24 (permalink)
    You should be able to get a 10ms round trip latency or maybe better than that. To an extent it depends on how many tracks you are input echoing in the DAW and the cpu load plugins are causing (and some plugins create quite substantial latency fhemselves).

    It will also mean making sure the PC is optimally configured for real time audio. Things like the various C sleep states (controlled in the BIOS), cpu core parking and things like drivers hogging too much Windows/hardware time (a different kind of latency on the PCI bus itself caused by delayed procedure calls) can all cause dropouts or crackles if latency is too low. Wifi adaptors are a major source of trouble unless disabled in Window's device manager while you're using the DAW software.

    I can get a 32 sample buffer at 44.1KHz on the PC in my sig, so long as I don't load up the project too heavily. 64 samples is more stable though. That's a 5 or 6ms round trip latency. I can also get the same on my MacBook Pro which is quite a bit less powerful and needed no tweaking of anything to get latency that low. Apple's core audio handles things better than Windows, but a well configured PC can equal a Mac. It just requires some fine tuning.

    Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board,
    ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre.
    Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
    #6
    charlyg
    Max Output Level: -72 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 950
    • Joined: 2015/02/27 22:10:47
    • Location: West Hills, CA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC! 2015/07/03 09:44:19 (permalink)
    BTW from what I know, that effective latency at the top only regardsWDM. Your ASIO setting is too high. If you contact Focusrite, they may send you the new driver(it was in beta when I got it and may still be). It gives you 3 choices Recording  Balanced Mixing with the ability to change the sample rate. If it was me, and it was.......I'd get it. The old focusrite driver, while stable, was a kludge to configure correctly. Fortunately we usually have leeway and more than one setting will work well.
    post edited by charlyg - 2015/07/03 09:53:29

     
     
    #7
    thechurchboi
    Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 79
    • Joined: 2015/01/22 19:11:49
    • Location: Trinidad and Tobago
    • Status: offline
    Re: Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC! 2015/07/03 19:16:27 (permalink)
    charlyg
    BTW from what I know, that effective latency at the top only regardsWDM. Your ASIO setting is too high. If you contact Focusrite, they may send you the new driver(it was in beta when I got it and may still be). It gives you 3 choices Recording  Balanced Mixing with the ability to change the sample rate. If it was me, and it was.......I'd get it. The old focusrite driver, while stable, was a kludge to configure correctly. Fortunately we usually have leeway and more than one setting will work well.
     

    I have the latest driver (1.8) from Focusrite.
    What settings are you currently using with your Focusrite soundcard?
    Also, my Playback Timing Master is set to the Focusrite's 'SP/DIF L' but I don't use any other gear besides my audio interface, so it's currently set to 'Internal' as the sync source. Is this fine?
    post edited by thechurchboi - 2015/07/03 19:57:54

    Windows 7 Ultimate x64, ASUS Z77 Motherboard, Intel Core i7 3770, 16GB 1600Mhz DDR3 RAM
    SONAR X3e Producer, Focusrite Scarlett 18i8, Wharfedale Diamond Pro 8.1, M-Audio Axiom Pro 49
    #8
    charlyg
    Max Output Level: -72 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 950
    • Joined: 2015/02/27 22:10:47
    • Location: West Hills, CA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC! 2015/07/03 20:05:36 (permalink)
    My version is 3.1.10.221 It is not publicly available yet, but if you email them......
     
    I can get to 48k 64 samples but I don't trust it. 5.4 in 5.4 out 10.8 rountrip
    I do just fine with 48k 128 samples for  6.7  6.7  13.5
    I can get under 10 rt but depending on the size of the project, I may get some dropouts. Anything much over 15 roundtrip and it's real easy to hear the latency.
     
    I don't know much about timing master, but mine is set to the 2i2..
    post edited by charlyg - 2015/07/03 20:13:16

     
     
    #9
    brundlefly
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 14250
    • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
    • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
    • Status: offline
    Re: Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC! 2015/07/06 14:37:21 (permalink)
    thechurchboi
    Buffer Size: 5.0 msec

    Input: 11.4 msec, 501 samples
    Output: 16.4 msec, 722 samples
    Total Roundtrip: 27.7 msec, 1223 samples

     
    That's quite a bit of bus and A/D/A conversion latency. Even if you had no buffering at all, your round-trip would be 27.7ms - 2 x 5ms = 17.7ms, which would be a little bothersome with input-monitored instruments, and just tolerable with soft synths that are only subject outbound latency.
     
    If the latency is a lot better on your Mac with comparable buffer sizes, it would seem that the USB system and interface drivers are working better there.  SONAR is at the mercy of you Windows hardware performance.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

    SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
    Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
    #10
    dcumpian
    Max Output Level: -34 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4124
    • Joined: 2005/11/03 15:50:51
    • Status: offline
    Re: Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC! 2015/07/07 08:19:30 (permalink)
     
     
    brundlefly
    thechurchboi
    Buffer Size: 5.0 msec

    Input: 11.4 msec, 501 samples
    Output: 16.4 msec, 722 samples
    Total Roundtrip: 27.7 msec, 1223 samples

     
    That's quite a bit of bus and A/D/A conversion latency. Even if you had no buffering at all, your round-trip would be 27.7ms - 2 x 5ms = 17.7ms, which would be a little bothersome with input-monitored instruments, and just tolerable with soft synths that are only subject outbound latency.
     
    If the latency is a lot better on your Mac with comparable buffer sizes, it would seem that the USB system and interface drivers are working better there.  SONAR is at the mercy of you Windows hardware performance.
     



    Well, that and the ability of the interface driver writers to create a good quality Windows driver. Many driver work better on a Mac because there is only one way to do things. Windows is a very different environment.
     
    Regards,
    Dan
     
     

    Mixing is all about control.
     
    My music:
    http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.    
    #11
    Doktor Avalanche
    Max Output Level: -32.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4294
    • Joined: 2015/03/26 18:02:02
    • Status: offline
    Re: Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC! 2015/07/07 09:03:35 (permalink)
    How is this a bug?

    Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
    #12
    brundlefly
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 14250
    • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
    • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
    • Status: offline
    Re: Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC! 2015/07/07 12:20:03 (permalink)
    It's not, and the thread should probably be moved at this point. But it would be nice to get the comparable numbers from Logic with the same buffer size. Beyond that, I'm not sure how you would tease out the individual contributions of bus and driver performance. I'm assuming A/D/A conversion and firmware performance will  be the same for the interface, regardless of which platform it's connected to. And we know that SONAR can deliver competitive latency with the right hardware/driver setup, so it's just a matter of figuring out why the interface is "snappier" on the Mac than on Windows. But at this point, we haven't even confirmed that the buffer sizes are the same.
     
     

    SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
    Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
    #13
    Doktor Avalanche
    Max Output Level: -32.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4294
    • Joined: 2015/03/26 18:02:02
    • Status: offline
    Re: Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC! 2015/07/07 20:12:54 (permalink)
    Why the heck aren't hosts moving these posts? Have they stopped monitoring these forums? Are they even alive?
    There are loads of posts around like this as well, it's not like this is an isolated thing... But this is a forum for recipes to reproduce issues and get them validated.
     
    Nevermind I gave in ages ago..
    post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/07/07 20:23:02

    Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
    #14
    brundlefly
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 14250
    • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
    • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
    • Status: offline
    Re: Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC! 2015/07/08 00:56:38 (permalink)
    Yeah, I think the novelty of being forum hosts has worn off a little.

    SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
    Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
    #15
    Doktor Avalanche
    Max Output Level: -32.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4294
    • Joined: 2015/03/26 18:02:02
    • Status: offline
    Re: Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC! 2015/07/08 07:40:31 (permalink)
    Well it wore off on me.Looks like this finally got moved. I think fresh blood is called for myself. Anyways moving on...
    post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/07/08 07:54:05

    Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
    #16
    johnkeel
    Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 56
    • Joined: 2014/10/20 20:26:32
    • Location: Portugal
    • Status: offline
    Re: Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC! 2015/07/10 11:08:33 (permalink)
    With the RME Fireface 802 i get roundtip bellow 10ms even with USB.
     
    The problem in maintaining small buffers for that (like 64 buffer sizer) is having a machine that won´t spike with DPC latency, small buffers + spikes = audio crackle and even audio engine stop in extreme spikes.
     
    With Apple stuff you get usually acceptable dpc values in a STOCK system (200 to 500 dpc), they have limited hardware so it´s a lot easier for apple to keep the drivers under control. With Windows sometimes a full stock system will have 4000 dpc spikes from some random hardware driver, acpi or whatever and so on...
     
    The thing is, with Windows it´s VERY VERY easy to tune and get dpc values between 5 to max 100. I have max 20 dpc :D can´t get that on a mac, i tried, failed. Just be sure to get proper controllers, disable the crap you don´t need (devices, services, etc), lock CPU/Memory/Power values and do a lot of testing.
     
    As for drivers, RME blows my mind, the best purchase i ever made! USB or Firewire, both rock the same. 

    My Personal WebsiteMy Band - SULLEN

    Sonar Professional powered by Custom-Built Laptop with Xeon E5 2650V2 - 32GB 1600Mhz Memory - 2x SSD 512GB Samsung 840PRO RAID0 - Texas Inst. Firewire800 - RME Fireface802
    #17
    robert_e_bone
    Moderator
    • Total Posts : 8968
    • Joined: 2007/12/26 22:09:28
    • Location: Palatine, IL
    • Status: offline
    Re: Latency Comparison: MAC vs PC! 2015/07/11 03:15:20 (permalink)
    While I CAN run at an ASIO Buffer Size of 64, I generally run at 128, and 48K sample rate and 24 bit record depth, and I am right around 9.7 ms to 11.3, depending on which of my audio interfaces I am using.  These numbers are for tracking/recording, by the way.  When mixing/mastering, I jack up the ASIO Buffer Size to either 1024 or 2048.  I then switch back and forth between low for tracking and high for mixing, and I never have performance/latency issues.
     
    Hope that helps, 
     
    Bob Bone
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #18
    Jump to:
    © 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1