Helpful ReplyEffects order changes sound

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Sharkbite
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2015/06/28 21:46:28 (permalink)

Effects order changes sound

I have a feeling I am the last one to know this, but I just discovered how much different the sound can be depending order of the effects. I had 2 identical drum track set up with superior drummer, one track picked up right where the other ended and every setting was identical but you could here a volume difference as well as much more reverb on first track. I was using Nomad Blue Tubes Brickwall and then Blue Tubes Nomad Blue verb. I didn't realize I had them switched in there order on the 2 tracks. Just posting this for any other amateur like myself.

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Anderton
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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/06/28 22:51:02 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Sharkbite 2015/07/02 20:52:17
Actually one of the most common questions people ask is about the "correct" order of effects. I was doing a workshop on voiceover and vocal recording in New York last week, and we spent a fair amount of time on the "EQ before or after dynamics" question. Sometimes the answer is pretty nuanced, and there's no single "right" answer. So it's good you posted this thread, it might encourage some questions about this topic.
 
My general rule of thumb (and of course, rules are made to be broken) is dynamics first, EQ second, time-based effects third. But I often switch to EQ first followed by dynamics it I want to use the EQ to "pump" the dynamics. For example with a dance mix I can really boost the bass if it's before dynamics because the dynamics will tame it. But if recording jazz drums, then you probably want the EQ after any dynamics.
 
The beauty of recording is that there is unlimited creative potential, and very often, the "wrong" technique produces the "right" sound.

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mudgel
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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/06/29 00:20:39 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Sharkbite 2015/07/02 20:53:43
I'm pretty much with Craig. Dynamics, eq, time based effects in that order.

It seems to be the order where the least adjustment causes the most audible effect to me so it's a good basis for training your ear to the nuances of multi effects. When you change the order of the dynamics and eq the result is usually a very unexpected sound. Of course you can repeat your experiment easily by creating presets and fx chains. That's a must. Then comes creating a naming convention that allows you to find it again.

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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/06/29 02:53:19 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Sharkbite 2015/07/02 20:55:24
That said, a high pass filter as the first thing in a chain isn't a bad idea...
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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/06/29 13:32:29 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Sharkbite 2015/07/02 20:55:27
KPerry
That said, a high pass filter as the first thing in a chain isn't a bad idea...



definitely. I'd even go further and consider low cut (high pass) filters as among the most important ingredients of a transparent mix. a low cut in (almost) every channel, properly tuned of course ... plus again in selected buses (as some of the bus fx add unnecessary rumble to the low end) ...
 
just don't add them with the piano player or guitarist looking over your shoulder and then make the mistake to solo the track for them ... they simply won't like it ;-)

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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/06/29 16:19:18 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Sharkbite 2015/07/02 20:56:17
Anderton
we spent a fair amount of time on the "EQ before or after dynamics" question.
 



Well, both at the same time, obviously :-)
 
Before to act as an overall hi/lo/bandpass, compressor pumper or unpumper and surgical eq to reduce any resonances that are driving the compressor in an unwanted way. After for more general tone shaping and any further resonance reduction.
 
There's often a good reason to use several eqs in one processing chain, similar to how a guitar has a tone control, overdrive or distortion pedals carry one or more tone controls to shape the pedal output, then the amp has its own tone stack.

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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/06/29 16:27:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Sharkbite 2015/07/02 20:56:25
Totally agree.
 
I generally use the Sonitus before for the filtering (it's good that you can stack bands at the same frequency for a steeper slope) and the QC afterwards for sweetening.

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Sharkbite
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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/07/02 20:48:34 (permalink)

"It seems to be the order where the least adjustment causes the most audible effect to me so it's a good basis for training your ear to the nuances of multi effects."
 
Great point. thank you.

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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/07/04 22:58:29 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Sharkbite 2015/07/05 11:28:45
mudgel
I'm pretty much with Craig. Dynamics, eq, time based effects in that order.

If there is a lot of low frequency content that you will be removing with EQ anyway, I would be EQ-ing first to stop it from pumping the dynamics processor.  I think every situation is different and the "rules" have to be reassessed for every task.  It takes a combination of understanding and experimentation to come up with the right recipes to solve a particular problem or achieve a desired effect.
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RD9
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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/07/05 02:18:04 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Sharkbite 2015/07/05 11:28:30
Sharkbite
I have a feeling I am the last one to know this, but I just discovered how much different the sound can be depending order of the effects. I had 2 identical drum track set up with superior drummer, one track picked up right where the other ended and every setting was identical but you could here a volume difference as well as much more reverb on first track. I was using Nomad Blue Tubes Brickwall and then Blue Tubes Nomad Blue verb. I didn't realize I had them switched in there order on the 2 tracks. Just posting this for any other amateur like myself.


Sharkbite, Thanks, you make an important point; it seems you have embarked on a fantastic journey which has no unique path as you can see from the posts above. E.g. the placement of EQ in the signal path can be quite variable; one of my channel strips even has a button which switches the EQ to either before or after the compressor. I personally like to use a high pass filter early in my chain. 
 
There are some rules of thumb which are best followed in the first instance, though.  Below is a link to an article that I found useful. SOS is a great resource for this type of advice.  However, remember that how it sounds is more important than any rule.
 
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul99/articles/20tips.htm
 
Cheers,
R
post edited by RD9 - 2015/07/05 02:25:40
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/07/05 08:17:11 (permalink)
FreeFlyBertl
just don't add them with the piano player or guitarist looking over your shoulder and then make the mistake to solo the track for them ... they simply won't like it ;-)



Ha I've definitely been guilty of that.

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bitflipper
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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/07/05 08:41:56 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
FreeFlyBertl
just don't add them with the piano player or guitarist looking over your shoulder and then make the mistake to solo the track for them ... they simply won't like it ;-)



Ha I've definitely been guilty of that.




It's especially awkward when you're married to the piano player, no?


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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/07/05 10:19:48 (permalink)
Actually its me - I've had people kill the mids from my sound and I'm a midrangy kind of guy <g>

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Zargg
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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/07/06 04:35:15 (permalink)
Hi. I usually use er before and after dynamics. Depending om the song , I sometimes use a subtractive eq first, dynamics, and boost eq. Or the other way, if needed. I switch them around to see/hear what I like best.
As mentioned earlier, there are no specific rules. If it sounds good to you, it is good😀

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Karyn
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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/07/06 06:21:44 (permalink)
There is a 'natural' order to certain effects.
 
Take any acoustic instrument (lets use a piano), the natural order is dynamics (how hard you hit the keys), EQ (the shape/construction of the instrument), then time based (room reverb).
 
Once you start looking at artificial effects, like compression, distortion, chorus, flanging, then you have to understand exactly what they're doing to the sound in order to decide where best to put them in the chain.   Placing a chorus before distortion will give an entirely different sound to placing it after...

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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/07/06 06:40:27 (permalink)
Oh dear... It looks like I'm doing it all wrong then...
 
Typically, on most of my recent projects, I insert an EQ plug as the first item in the effects bin, and apply that to the dry sound, in order to get the sound "sculpted" to fit in with each of the other tracks. Only if I feel that it is absolutely necessary do I add a dynamics plug into a track effects bin.
 
If I am adding reverb to a track, I have since settled on always creating a buss for that effect and sending individual tracks to that, which is then routed to the master buss.
 
If I add delay to a track then I will generally add that to a track, usually because I am after a particular delay effect just for that track, rather than trying to emulate playing in a canyon or something. And I place it last in the bin.
 
I use mainly VST instruments, many of which come with their own EQ, dynamic and reverb/delay. If I am unable to attain the same effect with one of my VST plugs then I will use the effect that comes with the VSTi, otherwise I turn it off, thereby giving me more control over effects order, as well as using a plug that is sometimes better than the same "on-board" effect.
 
On my master buss I have recently started using final "mastering" (I use that term loosely) EQ, followed by a limiter and finally spectrum display.
 
So, to recap, I am using EQ > Dynamics (if required) > Reverb on tracks and then EQ > Dynamics on the master buss.
 
I'm going to have to do a bit more research on this...
 
 

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Karyn
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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/07/06 07:19:12 (permalink)
There's nothing wrong with the way you're adding reverb,  in fact a send to a reverb bus is the "standard" way to work.  It goes back to the days when reverb units were very expensive (and big) and most studios had one (or two).
Today you could put a reverb in every tack FX bin if you wanted, but because of the way we perceive sound (specifically reverb) it's best if each instrument using reverb has exactly the same reverb  (you're creating physical space) and the best way to achieve that is to have a single instance in a bus that you send other tracks to.
 
As for EQ and dynamics.  Altering the volume will not normally affect the frequency content* but altering the frequency content WILL affect how a dynamics processor reacts.  Every gate/expander/compressor/limiter is basically just an automated volume/gain control and the control input is frequency sensitive.  There are no rules to say you should not put EQ before dynamics, but you could end up chasing your tail as every EQ change will affect the dynamics as well.
 
 
* A very fast attack on a gate can add artificial hi frequencies to give a kick drum that '80's click

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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/07/06 10:10:22 (permalink)
1 + 2 * 3 = ?
 
Whether the answer is 7 or 9 depends upon the order in which you perform the addition and multiplication. 
 
Everything that happens under the hood of a DAW comes down to addition and multiplication.
 
The difference is that in arithmetic we've settled upon rules of precedence in order to assure consistent results. In the real world such rules do not exist, so 7 and 9 are both legitimate answers.


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Zargg
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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/07/06 12:50:20 (permalink)
I think there is no such thing as a specific order of plugins. I use plugins in the order I think fits the song / part. There is no spoon...

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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/07/06 15:24:14 (permalink)
if you think of 'effects' as more 'sound shapers', and understand that GAIN STAGING is important in this equation,
then you will get a better handle on stacking effects.
 

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Jeff Evans
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Re: Effects order changes sound 2015/07/06 17:05:09 (permalink)
A good thing to do is monitor VU levels going in and out of every effect in a chain.
 
Using effects is creative so there is no real correct way of connecting effects.
 
Having said that for mastering it is different I feel. The EQ should come before the compressor. Once the sound is nicely balanced EQ wise before the signal hits the compressor the compressor will be happier usually and will often sound better as a result.
 
eg suppose yoyur mix has way too much bass then the (single band) compressor will always be over reacting to the bass end. EQ it and get it sounding normal again and then the whole spectrum of the signal will be hitting the compressor much more evenly. Nicer sound from the compressor.

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