So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators??

Author
BenMMusTech
Max Output Level: -49 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2606
  • Joined: 2011/05/23 16:59:57
  • Location: Warragul, Victoria-Australia
  • Status: offline
2015/07/07 00:09:10 (permalink)

So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators??

Hi Guys...I've been going through my archives...Jimmy Page style and am really please about my progress...I get what everyone has been saying to me over the years...about my mixes ;) Now that I've got a couple more years under my belt, I've taken tracks which in all honestly sounded like crap when I would post them over the years and turned them into...I think great works of art...note the use of the word art...not entertainment...not even music possibly...not in the traditional sense...but hey apparently I'm a fine artist these days...starting my Phd next week...sorry can't help boosting my ego somewhat lol...doesn't mean I know everything...maybe I don't know anything...amazing what ADHD medication and a well rounded education can do for ones self-awareness...maybe even middle age ;)
 
Anyway my point...after a year and a half of screwing around with Sonar's console and tape emulator and Eddie Krammer's Master Tape emulator-which I highly recommend-it's fantastic on the master buss just before the brickwall limiter-I think I've mastered them.  I'm interested if anybody else has cracked the code.
 
For me last night...whilst focusing furiously (ADHD medication) I finally understood what was happening with the console emulator-I had been having some great results whilst still not fully appreciating what was quite going on.  I was trying to tighten a mix last night...the bass which was a bit whooly-was struggling to cut through...I wanted each note to be present.  Whilst I understood that the console emulators could be used as tone control...very subtle, what I realized last night was the console emulator could also be used as a very subtle transient shaper too-this is on top of the obvious use of soft-clip too.  When I realized that I could use the console emulator in this way...I was able to shape the tone of my mix in ways I never thought possible.  Along with the use of the tape emulator as a subtle compressor...I believe my mixes are very warm and fat...here is the result for anyone interested https://soundcloud.com/aaudiomystiks/dont-mean-maybe this track was recorded in 2007 or 8 using a behringer ultra-gain for the vocals and bass...the rest is all virtual instruments.
 
My workflow is console emulator last on the track, with no tape emulator, unless it's very minor compression I'm after.  Whilst on the buss's I use the tape emulator for gain staging, this is fed into the console emulator.  All effects are before both emulators.  Finally it's amazing what changing the pan law does-depending on the sort of tracks you are mixing.
 
Anyway anybody else got any opinions on this topic, please chime in...sorry about the waffling!!   
 
Ben
post edited by BenMMusTech - 2015/07/07 00:15:52

Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
http://1331.space/
https://thedigitalartist.bandcamp.com/
http://soundcloud.com/aaudiomystiks
#1

20 Replies Related Threads

    synkrotron
    Max Output Level: -22.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5263
    • Joined: 2006/04/28 16:21:21
    • Location: Warrington, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/07 00:12:37 (permalink)
    Not me Ben... I'd go so far to say that I have stopped using them altogether as I just cannot hear the benefit, at least not on my own music...
     
    Funny song that... Made me giggle 

    http://www.synkrotron.co.uk/
    Intel Core™i7-3820QM Quad Core Mobile Processor 2.70GHz 8MB cache | Intel HM77 Express Chipset | 16GB SAMSUNG 1600MHz SODIMM DDR3 RAM | NVIDIA GeForce GTX 675M - 2.0GB DDR5 Video RAM | 500GB Samsung 850 Pro SSD | 1TB Samsung 850 Pro SSD | Windows 10 Pro | Roland OCTA-CAPTURE | SONAR Platinum ∞ FFS| Too many VSTi's to list here | KRK KNS-8400 Headphones | Roland JP-8000 | Oberheim OB12 | Novation Nova | Gibson SG Special | PRS Studio
    #2
    BenMMusTech
    Max Output Level: -49 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2606
    • Joined: 2011/05/23 16:59:57
    • Location: Warragul, Victoria-Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/07 00:54:11 (permalink)
    synkrotron
    Not me Ben... I'd go so far to say that I have stopped using them altogether as I just cannot hear the benefit, at least not on my own music...
     
    Funny song that... Made me giggle 


    It's subtle Andy...you've got to train your ears...it helps that I have ADHD medication;) yea Don't Mean Maybe is one of my favorite's...it's about unrequited love...she was French oh la la...
     
    Ben

    Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
    http://1331.space/
    https://thedigitalartist.bandcamp.com/
    http://soundcloud.com/aaudiomystiks
    #3
    Amine Belkhouche
    Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 142
    • Joined: 2015/06/01 04:46:52
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/07 07:54:34 (permalink)
    For better or worse, I am a product of the digital age. I do try to pay attention to how gear was used back in the day, signal flow, effects chains,  etc...
     
    I came across this a couple days ago, I ended up buying the magazine:
    http://www.musicradar.com/tuition/tech/how-to-simulate-analogue-recording-and-mixing-chains-in-your-daw-622389
     
    It's all in the title and I'm sure it can help give you some insight on how you can emulate that workflow in SONAR.
    #4
    Jeff Evans
    Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5139
    • Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
    • Location: Ballarat, Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/07 07:58:36 (permalink)
    I can really see where synkrotron is coming from. (after all he loves Tangerine Dream so that says it all for me! )
     
    I produce a lot of electronic music too and these things just don't play well in that situation. In fact there are many situations where it does not play well.
     
    If it is so subtle that you cannot hear it then you could argue that it may not be necessary.
     
    I have got SDRR from Klanghelm and it sounds rather cool. ie console emulation. (hardly use it much though) I have got real tape machines Ben and I don't often transfer stuff to them and back either. I do sometimes put SDRR on a stem though not a whole mix.

    Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
     
    Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
    #5
    michaelhanson
    Max Output Level: -40 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3529
    • Joined: 2008/10/31 15:19:56
    • Location: Mesquite, Texas
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/07 08:45:41 (permalink)
    Ben, I have been using the CE on every track since Cakewalk introduced the PC Plug.  I use it last in my signal chain on every track and right before Xenon (Limiter) on my Master bus.  I use it sparingly, but as a collective whole, across all of the tracks, I notice the final results in my mix.  I like the effect a lot....have since the first time I used it.  
     
    I agree with you that it seems to add a subtle type of compression when used.  The best way for me to describe what it does for my mixes, is that it adds a Glue, to pull all of the tracks together.  I mix into the CE from the beginning.  
     
    I used to use the Tone Boosters Tape emulation quite often, but I have gotten away from using it much.
     
    If I A/B the mix, and disengage all of the CE's across the board, you notice that its no longer there.  I also collaborate with guys who use Sonar and I suspect that they don't use the CE on tracks like I do.  On the same song, with the same tracks, I can hear a difference between their mixes and my mixes.  Is it better?  It's different....but I like the effect a lot.  It has become a signature for my mixes.....and I feel for the Pro Channel.
    post edited by michaelhanson - 2015/07/07 09:01:43

    Mike

    https://soundcloud.com/michaeljhanson
    https://www.facebook.com/michaeljhanson.music
    iTunes:
    https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/scandalous-grace/id1180730765
     
    Platinum Lifetime, Focusrite 8i6 & 2i4, Gibson LP, ES335, Fender Strat, 4003 Rickenbacker
    BMI
    #6
    Amine Belkhouche
    Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 142
    • Joined: 2015/06/01 04:46:52
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/07 09:33:59 (permalink)
    Hey michael,
     
    How hard do you drive the CE? I remember when I first started using it, I drove the N-Type to max. It colors the sound in a noticeable way. I found that it was harder to deal with the high-mids later on in the mix. Needless to say, I learned my lesson. I find the A-Type to be a nice compromise between coloration and subtlety.
    post edited by Amine Belkhouche - 2015/07/07 09:45:27
    #7
    michaelhanson
    Max Output Level: -40 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3529
    • Joined: 2008/10/31 15:19:56
    • Location: Mesquite, Texas
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/07 09:53:08 (permalink)
    Well, everything is to ear....of course.  
     
    However, as a starting point, I typically set the Drive around 2.  I push the the Trim anywhere from Zero to 2, to taste.  This is not set in stone, but a starting point for me.  I use the A-Type Emulator the most.  I use the S-Type for a warmer feel and the N-Type for more "Punch", depending on the type of song I am working with.  
     
    Mixing Emulators is something I also do; I don't necessarily stick to one all the way through the song tracks.  If I want the drum tracks to sound warmer, I use the S-Type, for example.  
     
    Make sure that your Pro Channel is set to the Post position so that all of the effects are after your recorded track; not Pre.
     
    There is no real formula....this is music....so it's all to taste.   
    post edited by michaelhanson - 2015/07/07 10:03:37

    Mike

    https://soundcloud.com/michaeljhanson
    https://www.facebook.com/michaeljhanson.music
    iTunes:
    https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/scandalous-grace/id1180730765
     
    Platinum Lifetime, Focusrite 8i6 & 2i4, Gibson LP, ES335, Fender Strat, 4003 Rickenbacker
    BMI
    #8
    Amine Belkhouche
    Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 142
    • Joined: 2015/06/01 04:46:52
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/07 10:16:03 (permalink)
    Oh I am painfully aware that there are no formulas, just wanted to get more perspective. I appreciate the reply.
    #9
    Kamikaze
    Max Output Level: -45 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3013
    • Joined: 2015/01/15 21:38:59
    • Location: Da Nang, Vietnam
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/07 10:56:09 (permalink)
    Here's a break down of the different qualities if anyone not seen before.
    http://blog.cakewalk.com/..ole-emulation-in-sonar/

     
    #10
    tlw
    Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2567
    • Joined: 2008/10/11 22:06:32
    • Location: West Midlands, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/07 14:27:48 (permalink)
    There are really two varieties of console-emulation plugin.
     
    Cakewalks, and third party ones like Waves' NLS, which put simply emulate the changes made to audio by passing it through a high-quality mixer channel with flat eq, tend to be subtle. To really hear them make a difference it's best to have lots of tracks and busses using them. Which isn't surprising really as they are based round consoles like the SSL and Neve ones which were designed from the off to be as "pure" as the technology of the time could manage. Ironically, it's their lack of purity that's ended up making them and their sound so sought after. A bit like when CBS decided to modify the Fender amp designs to get rid of the "nasty distortion" only to find out audiences and guitarists alike actually liked and wanted the distortion.
     
    If you want to find out what such emulations are doing, load a project with a lot of audio tracks, add the CE to each channel and bus, group all the CEs (or have them as the only effect) then bypass them all either by clicking on a group member or hitting "E" to bypass all effects.
     
    The other kind of console emulator are plugins like Waves' Abbey Road REDD and TG12345 which, like the vintage consoles they're modelled on, have a pretty obvious and distinctive effect on audio.

    Tape emulations have their uses I find, particularly if I'm trying to capture the sound of a time period when tape was used. Again, the tape recorder designers and manufacturers put a great deal of effort into making their products as hi-fi as possible so unless you crank the emulated wow and flutter and push the gain and saturation hard you won't hear them making much difference until you've quite a few channels using them.
     
    Taking a track with a tape emulator, bouncing it, inserting another tape emulator on that track, bouncing that and repeat a couple of times is a way to emulate the old practice of repeatedly bouncing sub-mixes down because the tape deck was only four or eight channels in the first place. If you want recordings that sound like the 1960s repeated bouncing can give you the Beatles/Stones etc. sound in a DAW.
     
    Ironic really. Back in the pre-DAW days engineers would have loved to be rid of the "negative" side of noisy consoles with less than flexible eq and tape machines with all their problems. Now we seem to want the "defects" back because they actually sound pretty good.

    Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board,
    ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre.
    Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
    #11
    batsbrew
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 10037
    • Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
    • Location: SL,UT
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/07 14:57:23 (permalink)
    yea,
    to me,
    the whole idea of tape emulation and console emulation is @ss backwards.
     

    Bats Brew music Streaming
    Bats Brew albums:
    "Trouble"
    "Stay"
    "The Time is Magic"
    --
    Sonar 6 PE>Bandlab Cakewalk>Studio One 3.5>RME BFP>i7-7700 3.6GHz>MSI B250M>G.Skill Ripjaws 4 series 16GB>Samsung 960 EVO m.2ssd>W 10 Pro
     
    #12
    BenMMusTech
    Max Output Level: -49 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2606
    • Joined: 2011/05/23 16:59:57
    • Location: Warragul, Victoria-Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/07 21:11:46 (permalink)
    Thanks for all the answers guys...whilst everyone was answering I was actually mixing lol...I've opened up the links that have been posted will digest what has been written.
     
    After experimenting last night...I found them even more useful.
     
    Cheers Ben

    Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
    http://1331.space/
    https://thedigitalartist.bandcamp.com/
    http://soundcloud.com/aaudiomystiks
    #13
    gswitz
    Max Output Level: -18.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5694
    • Joined: 2007/06/16 07:17:14
    • Location: Richmond Virginia USA
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/07 23:52:28 (permalink)
    I think it can be fun too put a little tape hiss on the count in for a track. We all recognize it and you don't have to leave it on.

    I like saturation from time to time too.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #14
    BenMMusTech
    Max Output Level: -49 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2606
    • Joined: 2011/05/23 16:59:57
    • Location: Warragul, Victoria-Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/08 01:09:36 (permalink)
    Oh I forget to mention that last night whilst experimenting with the console emulator...I discovered that changing from peak to rms actually changed the tone too...as you would expect the peak was faster when it kicked in and rms was slower...very cool!
     
    Ben 

    Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
    http://1331.space/
    https://thedigitalartist.bandcamp.com/
    http://soundcloud.com/aaudiomystiks
    #15
    synkrotron
    Max Output Level: -22.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5263
    • Joined: 2006/04/28 16:21:21
    • Location: Warrington, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/08 04:06:23 (permalink)
    Jeff Evans
    after all he loves Tangerine Dream so that says it all for me!



    Haha! Thanks Jeff... Made me laugh that 
     
    Jeff Evans
    If it is so subtle that you cannot hear it then you could argue that it may not be necessary.
     



    Yeah, this is where I am coming from I think. And at my age (55) it is now unlikely that I can even train my ears to hear any subtle nuances brought by console emulation. And I am deaf to anything over 14kHz...
     
    I am somewhat envious, at times, of peeps that are able to hear things I just can't, and not just in relation to some of the things being discussed here.
     
     

    http://www.synkrotron.co.uk/
    Intel Core™i7-3820QM Quad Core Mobile Processor 2.70GHz 8MB cache | Intel HM77 Express Chipset | 16GB SAMSUNG 1600MHz SODIMM DDR3 RAM | NVIDIA GeForce GTX 675M - 2.0GB DDR5 Video RAM | 500GB Samsung 850 Pro SSD | 1TB Samsung 850 Pro SSD | Windows 10 Pro | Roland OCTA-CAPTURE | SONAR Platinum ∞ FFS| Too many VSTi's to list here | KRK KNS-8400 Headphones | Roland JP-8000 | Oberheim OB12 | Novation Nova | Gibson SG Special | PRS Studio
    #16
    ampfixer
    Max Output Level: -20 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5508
    • Joined: 2010/12/12 20:11:50
    • Location: Ontario
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/09 12:54:39 (permalink)
    My tinkering has confirmed to me that the console and tape emulations are simply distortion engines with attractive user interfaces. I have several to experiment with and they all colour the sound in different ways. It seems that humans like sound that is less than pristine but I've no explanation.
     
    The emulations in Sonar are not as heavy handed as some others out there but all I can say for sure is that they add distortion. I don't use them because they are so subtle and when I want to smear the sound, I want something more intense. 

    Regards, John 
     I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps.
    WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig,  Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6 
    #17
    michaelhanson
    Max Output Level: -40 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3529
    • Joined: 2008/10/31 15:19:56
    • Location: Mesquite, Texas
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/09 13:23:20 (permalink)
    I always find it kind of humorous that people search out tube amps, tube pre's, tube compressors, etc, in hardware. They pay thousands of dollars for this high end gear, because it colors (distorts) their sound in a musically/ ear pleasing way....but then don't care for a software plug in which mimics the same colorization.

    I remeber reading where years ago, at the birth of the guitar amp, where Fender was trying to eliminate distortion from their amps. Except that guitar players liked and wanted that overdrive tube colorization.

    I say if it sounds good to you, use it.

    Mike

    https://soundcloud.com/michaeljhanson
    https://www.facebook.com/michaeljhanson.music
    iTunes:
    https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/scandalous-grace/id1180730765
     
    Platinum Lifetime, Focusrite 8i6 & 2i4, Gibson LP, ES335, Fender Strat, 4003 Rickenbacker
    BMI
    #18
    Jesse G
    Max Output Level: -32.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4282
    • Joined: 2004/04/14 01:43:43
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/09 17:07:31 (permalink)
    I have referenced this video by Craig Anderton to better understand the Console Emulator.  He did a better  job explaining it than the Bakers did,
     
    Sonar Console Emulator demonstration by Craig Anderton

    Peace,
    Jesse G. A fisher of men  <><
    ==============================
    Cakewalk and I are going places together!

    Cakewalk By Bandlab, Windows 10 Pro- 64 bit, Gigabyte GA-Z97X-SLI, Intel Core i5-4460 Haswell Processor, Crucial Ballistix 32 GB Ram, PNY GeForce GTX 750, Roland Octa-Capture, Mackie Big Knob, Mackie Universal Controller (MCU), KRK V4's, KRK Rockit 6, Korg TR-61 Workstation, M-Audio Code 49 MIDI keyboard controller.[/
    #19
    Starise
    Max Output Level: -0.3 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 7563
    • Joined: 2007/04/07 17:23:02
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/15 11:26:06 (permalink)
    Just a suggestion to anyone who may be also trying to make a decision to use console emulation or not- 
     
    If you happen to be using Sonar Platinum the mix scene save is very useful. Simply save a mix scene before you add the emulation and then add console emulation to all channels. The save another mix scene with the emulation...you can try this with all three emulations to see which you like best and easily A/B between them.
     
    I think the best results are cumulative as Dan Cumpian mentioned not long ago. I was on the fence with using the emulations until I heard the results all added together on each track. Now I generally add consiole emulation to each track and Tape emulation on the master.Makes a nice glue and adds some pleasant harmonics.

    Intel 5820K O.C. 4.4ghz, ASRock Extreme 4 LGA 2011-v3, 16 gig DDR4, ,
    3 x Samsung SATA III 500gb SSD, 2X 1 Samsung 1tb 7200rpm outboard, Win 10 64bit, 
    Laptop HP Omen i7 16gb 2/sdd with Focusrite interface.
     CbB, Studio One 4 Pro, Mixcraft 8, Ableton Live 10 
     
     www.soundcloud.com/starise
     
     
     
    Twitter @Rodein
     
    #20
    BenMMusTech
    Max Output Level: -49 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2606
    • Joined: 2011/05/23 16:59:57
    • Location: Warragul, Victoria-Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re: So Who Actually Knows How To Use Console and Tape Emulators?? 2015/07/15 15:44:56 (permalink)
    Starise
    Just a suggestion to anyone who may be also trying to make a decision to use console emulation or not- 
     
    If you happen to be using Sonar Platinum the mix scene save is very useful. Simply save a mix scene before you add the emulation and then add console emulation to all channels. The save another mix scene with the emulation...you can try this with all three emulations to see which you like best and easily A/B between them.
     
    I think the best results are cumulative as Dan Cumpian mentioned not long ago. I was on the fence with using the emulations until I heard the results all added together on each track. Now I generally add consiole emulation to each track and Tape emulation on the master.Makes a nice glue and adds some pleasant harmonics.


    Exactly. It really is amazing how they...the emulators glue the mix together.

    Ben.

    Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
    http://1331.space/
    https://thedigitalartist.bandcamp.com/
    http://soundcloud.com/aaudiomystiks
    #21
    Jump to:
    © 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1