Amine Belkhouche
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Monitoring Level and Harshness/High End Management
Hey everyone,
I've recently come across an interesting obstacle. I usually keep my monitoring levels around 85 dB SPL. I've also noticed that I have a tendency to mix a little bright, which is perhaps due to many reasons: I am trying to mix with the reference in mind, I may be compensating for any deficiencies in my listening environment. I decided to check a couple of my mixes on different systems and at different levels and I noticed 2-6 kHz was particularly harsh, sometimes it was biting all the way up to 10-11 kHz.
I started to check my mixes/masters periodically at these higher levels but I realized that this wasn't sustainable. Alternatively, I've tried to train my ear to hear what a harsh mix/master sounds like at lower levels. I feel like I'm getting closer with this approach without destroying my ears.
My question is three-fold. How does everyone check their mixes/masters for harshness? Is there an alternative to catch this issue earlier on in the mix without having to turn the levels up so often? And lastly, how do you go about managing and balancing the dynamics of the high end in order to achieve a smooth-sounding mix at any level?
I've found that using de-essing and tape saturation at varying degrees tends to help a lot. I use the de-esser to make sure there's nothing in the channel that jumps out at the listener, while also, at times, ensuring a consistent presence for the sound in those frequency bands. I also tend to use a LPF and a tape saturator to darken sounds a bit, that seems to helps.
Anyway, I'd like to hear your approaches as this is something that I'm working hard on improving. Thanks in advance.
Amine
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BenMMusTech
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Re: Monitoring Level and Harshness/High End Management
2015/07/08 00:01:33
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Hi Amine...one of the things which can help is see how a mix looks like using a spectrum analyser, whatever style mix you are trying achieve find another artist who is similar and see what their mix looks like...then focus on the area you are having trouble with...what does it sound like.
Another thing is you should try is on the master remove the very top tip...I use the linear phase EQ set to a shelving filter and remove about 6db at 18khz but it varies depending on my what I am hearing...and def tape sims and console emulators can help to.
Also work out what is occupying the top end and sculpt each of those instruments and sounds so they are not all bunching up in the same area...choose which one will be dominant...then EQ the rest...slightly dipping those that are secondary in the frequency band.
And finally remember EQing is like sculpting...the pro channel EQ has wonderful shaping tools...learn how to use them, they will make your job easier...EQ is like colour...the pro channel is great for sculpting but a good pultec emulator will add subtle low end...the linear phase is great for surgical precision on the master bus.
I hope this helps.
Ben
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synkrotron
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Re: Monitoring Level and Harshness/High End Management
2015/07/08 04:11:10
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BenMMusTech
one of the things which can help is see how a mix looks like using a spectrum analyser
Yeah, I have to admit that SPAN is one of the first plugins I insert now as I know I am going to be relying on SPAN more than my ears. I then rely on my chums here on the Songs forum to tell me how my mix is, for which I am eternally grateful  Sorry I can't help with your questions though Amine... I really wish I could.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Monitoring Level and Harshness/High End Management
2015/07/08 06:17:09
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The first thing I would be doing is listening to really nice well balanced professional mixes in your monitoring environment. Are you doing that? Do you know what a great mix actually sounds like. You might find it is much smoother and warmer than you think. While you are mixing you can be dropping the reference mix in and out to keep you more in line. When you are mastering you can do that too. When you listen to something really great like a 'Steely Dan' album and then look at it on a spectrum analyser I see the top end falling slowly from about 1K upwards and a nice gentle downward slope. Also use your ears first then the analyser, not the other way around. I find it does not help you that much at all. They are better for showing problem areas. I dont think the songs forum is the best place for accurate mix information. I think it is better for song information.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2015/07/08 06:37:50
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bitflipper
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Re: Monitoring Level and Harshness/High End Management
2015/07/08 09:53:22
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Jeff Evans
The first thing I would be doing is listening to really nice well balanced professional mixes in your monitoring environment. Are you doing that? Do you know what a great mix actually sounds like. You might find it is much smoother and warmer than you think.
Big +1 to that advice! Get in the habit of listening to your favorite commercial recordings through your own reference monitors. Over time, you ears will actually train themselves (there has been scientific research that shows this to be the case) and they'll set a subconscious expectation of what a good mix sounds like. Your brain will even compensate for weaknesses in the speakers and in your room, and it'll do this all on its own without any formalized training or effort. 85dB is too loud for most people and causes ear fatigue too quickly. That level was chosen for the K-system because that's what movie theaters are calibrated for. At the time the K-system was invented, film exhibition was the only arena in which any universal standards existed. It doesn't mean you need to mix at 85dB, as it's only a calibration standard. Try some lower loudness levels until you settle on one that feels comfortable and isn't tiring. The exact value isn't important, as long as you're consistent and your ears have been trained to it. Even very low levels can work for mixing, once you've let your ears adapt. There are some advantages to low-volume mixing, because it forces you to concentrate on the midrange, the most important part of the spectrum. OTOH, monitoring at high levels tends to make you over-compensate for the flattening of the perceived spectrum, often resulting in excessive upper-mids. You can train your ears away from that prejudice over time, but that's true for any level you choose, so it makes sense to choose a level that's not fatiguing.
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dwardzala
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Re: Monitoring Level and Harshness/High End Management
2015/07/08 10:30:34
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85dB SPL sounds awfully loud for extended exposure. In my business that would require hearing protection for long exposure (we target < 77db SPL). Not suggesting that this is the source of your problem, but pointing out that you might be damaging your hearing unknowingly.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Monitoring Level and Harshness/High End Management
2015/07/08 19:12:07
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Firstly and no one ever does this is to qualify SPL A or C weighting. Big difference. Here is Australia the OH&S spec is 85 dB A for 8 hours. You will not damage your hearing. So a C setting because it takes in the bottom end much more is actually louder meaning with the C setting you will be turning it down a little more. (many people incorrectly have their meters set to A weighting instead meaning more sound pressure level in the room to get the 85 dB reading) Also the best frequency response for the ear is around 85 dB C SPL so don't spend too much time at lower volumes than this at all. You will start to make incorrect mix decisions. As I have said many times too pink noise at 85 dB C sounds quite a bit louder than music at the same level so do not go on that as your reference either. 85 dB C is not loud at all. I find it in fact a very nice volume. I am in a bigger room for sure but even if you are in a small room just set up the SPL meter where you are and adjust accordingly. 80 to 83 dB SPL is also a nice volume. When I talk about 85 dB as well the music is never really there all the time anyway. It drops down to 80 and under for short periods too. I mean the loudest parts of the music is reaching 85 dB SPL. Having said all that I also love monitoring in mono through a small Auratone type speaker and yes I love doing this way down low too eg 70 dB or under. So much can be heard that way. It is also really good to monitor up seriously loud too eg 95 to 105 dB for short periods. You will hear the reverbs and the bottom that way.And as the OP mentioned any harshness in a mix will rip your head off at that level too. Steely Dan still sounds smooth and well balanced even up at 105 dB. There is no other way to really get that insight. But of course only for short bursts.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2015/07/08 19:23:46
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Amine Belkhouche
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Re: Monitoring Level and Harshness/High End Management
2015/07/08 20:49:22
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Jeff Evans
85 dB C is not loud at all. I find it in fact a very nice volume. I am in a bigger room for sure but even if you are in a small room just set up the SPL meter where you are and adjust accordingly. 80 to 83 dB SPL is also a nice volume. When I talk about 85 dB as well the music is never really there all the time anyway. It drops down to 80 and under for short periods too. I mean the loudest parts of the music is reaching 85 dB SPL.
Hey, everyone. I appreciate the replies. I'll try to respond to each one in separate posts. I should have mentioned that I did indeed mean SPL C-Weighted, I guess I just didn't understand/wasn't aware that there was a significant difference between the different weighting systems. I do find it to be a comfortable level. Jeff Evans
It is also really good to monitor up seriously loud too eg 95 to 105 dB for short periods. You will hear the reverbs and the bottom that way.And as the OP mentioned any harshness in a mix will rip your head off at that level too. Steely Dan still sounds smooth and well balanced even up at 105 dB. There is no other way to really get that insight. But of course only for short bursts.
This is exactly what I try to do, and for the reasons you mentioned. I want to get my mix to still sound relatively balanced and smooth at those levels, especially those upper mids I was talking about. But as you said, you can only do it for so long. The only types of mixes I seem to have issues with that frequency band are IDM-type tracks, or any type of aggressive electronic music. Here's an example of one of the references I used: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW2M9jz-1Bo
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Amine Belkhouche
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Re: Monitoring Level and Harshness/High End Management
2015/07/08 20:55:22
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Jeff Evans
The first thing I would be doing is listening to really nice well balanced professional mixes in your monitoring environment. Are you doing that? Do you know what a great mix actually sounds like. You might find it is much smoother and warmer than you think.
While you are mixing you can be dropping the reference mix in and out to keep you more in line. When you are mastering you can do that too.
When you listen to something really great like a 'Steely Dan' album and then look at it on a spectrum analyser I see the top end falling slowly from about 1K upwards and a nice gentle downward slope. Also use your ears first then the analyser, not the other way around. I find it does not help you that much at all. They are better for showing problem areas.
I do reference quite a bit as I don't have a treated environment back home, but you can never be reminded too many times. It's probably the most important step. I should have mentioned that I'm at my parents for the summer and I've been confined to mixing in cans, which is where I noticed some issues creeping in. I'm having to make some adjustments for that. I typically have Magic AB on the master bus with 2-3 masters loaded. I listen to them before starting a mix and throughout the mixing/mastering process as well. As you say, it helps recalibrate the ears. I previously posted one of the references, you'll hear that it exists in a different world from Steely Dan. The arrangements are quite different and those synthetic sounds can be tricky to control. It's a balancing act between a present, somewhat aggressive sound and a smooth one.
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Amine Belkhouche
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Re: Monitoring Level and Harshness/High End Management
2015/07/08 20:58:55
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BenMMusTech
Hi Amine...one of the things which can help is see how a mix looks like using a spectrum analyser, whatever style mix you are trying achieve find another artist who is similar and see what their mix looks like...then focus on the area you are having trouble with...what does it sound like.
I do try to use a spectrogram when comparing my work to a reference. I find that looking at frequency level over time to be very helpful. BenMMusTech
Another thing is you should try is on the master remove the very top tip...I use the linear phase EQ set to a shelving filter and remove about 6db at 18khz but it varies depending on my what I am hearing...and def tape sims and console emulators can help to.
Also work out what is occupying the top end and sculpt each of those instruments and sounds so they are not all bunching up in the same area...choose which one will be dominant...then EQ the rest...slightly dipping those that are secondary in the frequency band.
And finally remember EQing is like sculpting...the pro channel EQ has wonderful shaping tools...learn how to use them, they will make your job easier...EQ is like colour...the pro channel is great for sculpting but a good pultec emulator will add subtle low end...the linear phase is great for surgical precision on the master bus.
I do think I just need to be more willing to darken some of the sounds in the arrangement. Maybe I can post a version of the master in the next week or so, that way you can see what I'm talking about. Thanks for your reply.
post edited by Amine Belkhouche - 2015/07/08 21:05:37
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Amine Belkhouche
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Re: Monitoring Level and Harshness/High End Management
2015/07/08 21:02:36
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synkrotron
Yeah, I have to admit that SPAN is one of the first plugins I insert now as I know I am going to be relying on SPAN more than my ears. I then rely on my chums here on the Songs forum to tell me how my mix is, for which I am eternally grateful
Sorry I can't help with your questions though Amine... I really wish I could.
No worries synkrotron, you're always pretty darn helpful anyway.
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Amine Belkhouche
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Re: Monitoring Level and Harshness/High End Management
2015/07/08 21:04:27
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bitflipper
Big +1 to that advice! Get in the habit of listening to your favorite commercial recordings through your own reference monitors. Over time, you ears will actually train themselves (there has been scientific research that shows this to be the case) and they'll set a subconscious expectation of what a good mix sounds like. Your brain will even compensate for weaknesses in the speakers and in your room, and it'll do this all on its own without any formalized training or effort.
I should have specified that my ears have been trying to adjust to mixing in cans over the summer. I might invest in some cheap monitors for referencing/mixing simply because it will help me recalibrate. Referencing does do wonders.
post edited by Amine Belkhouche - 2015/07/08 21:13:47
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Monitoring Level and Harshness/High End Management
2015/07/09 04:26:20
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Amine the biggest problem you have got is the headphones. If you are really seriois about mixing and mastering phones are out. Even when you spend $500 to $1000 they still can have issues. You are not in a great position to make any real assesments of things and mix well. (Phones are good for microscopic editing of tracks, better than speakers even)
Your cans probably have poor uneven response from 2K to 10K and hence you are pushing everything to make things sound normal. Hence the brittle mixes. If you are going to use headphones at least find some that sound as good as a decent speaker. Still not ideal but closer.
I understand the very large genre difference between say Steely Dan and to something like the reference track you pointed to eg Amon Tobin. But here is the thing, that track (like Steely Dan) sounds great here at my end. It is very well balanced and not brittle at all. Slightly toppy but nothing to worry about even. I like it top end wise actually.
With electronic music I find listening to late Tangerine Dream albums really helpful. (Mala Kunia) They are beautifully produced and make a fine reference even for different genres of electronic music. They know how to make synthesisers sound great. (46 years of experience!)
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codamedia
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Re: Monitoring Level and Harshness/High End Management
2015/07/09 09:33:01
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In regards to reference material - although I agree it is important to reference music from your genre, it's also important to reference "great sounding" music from the genre, not just something that is popular. There are several albums/CD's I cherish (and were very popular) that sound like crap on a set of studio monitors. Those are not good for reference material. Find the material that is recorded the best in your genre (whether you like it or not) and reference that.
Like Jeff Evans... Steely Dan is a go to for me. It doesn't matter if you like the music, the style, the songs or can even put up with Fagan's voice - the tonal quality of those CD's are second to none! "Two Against Nature" and "Everything Must Go" are always ready for a reference in my studio.
That doesn't mean that I reference a country song, or a rock song to those CD's.... I just train my ear on what a great production sounds like with them.
Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take!
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Amine Belkhouche
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Re: Monitoring Level and Harshness/High End Management
2015/07/09 11:01:41
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Jeff Evans
Amine the biggest problem you have got is the headphones. If you are really seriois about mixing and mastering phones are out. Even when you spend $500 to $1000 they still can have issues. You are not in a great position to make any real assesments of things and mix well. (Phones are good for microscopic editing of tracks, better than speakers even)
Your cans probably have poor uneven response from 2K to 10K and hence you are pushing everything to make things sound normal. Hence the brittle mixes. If you are going to use headphones at least find some that sound as good as a decent speaker. Still not ideal but closer.
I do realize that, but unfortunately I traveled for the summer and my set-up is back home (so much for mobile studio). I am just trying to adapt as best as possible. I am bouncing my mixes and listening to them in the car, on different speakers and earphones and comparing them to the reference. Even though it's not ideal, it does help me out quite a bit, especially in trying to accommodate for the headphones. I am listening to the references throughout the mix. It's all getting me closer to adapting to this less than ideal situation. I appreciate the feedback, it's definitely giving me some insight. I might eventually post the mix that I'm working on in the Songs forum and maybe that'll help give me a bit more perspective.
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Amine Belkhouche
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Re: Monitoring Level and Harshness/High End Management
2015/07/09 11:09:43
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codamedia
Like Jeff Evans... Steely Dan is a go to for me. It doesn't matter if you like the music, the style, the songs or can even put up with Fagan's voice - the tonal quality of those CD's are second to none! "Two Against Nature" and "Everything Must Go" are always ready for a reference in my studio.
That doesn't mean that I reference a country song, or a rock song to those CD's.... I just train my ear on what a great production sounds like with them.
I spent some time listening to 'Gaucho' from a production perspective. 'Babylon Sisters' was on repeat and it drove me nuts. That Purdie-like shuffle definitely helped get me through those repeated listens. Everything is noted concerning referencing great music. I think that's what might get me through this summer away from my monitors.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Monitoring Level and Harshness/High End Management
2015/07/09 18:46:58
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Sometimes a reference can work when it has nothing to do with the genre you are working with. For instance I mix live gigis too and I might be mixing a heavy metal band. I still use Steely Dan as the reference for setting up the FOH sound. (because I know it so well and it really helps me get the FOH speakers sounding real nice in the room) Then after that the metal band sounds killer. Most PA's have the subs way too loud. Steely Dan puts all that back into perspective.
Some of the best metal live mixers I have read do this too eg one guy uses KD Lang as the set up reference but mixes heavy metal after.
The last two Steely Dan CD's sound better than all the rest so don't get caught using older albums. They are nice of course but the last two are all digital and have that beautiful snap that lacks in previous albums (On vinyl especially)
Having said that Tangerine Dream also sounds pretty nice for electronic music too.
Amon Tobin sounds good here as well. Well balanced and pretty nice.
Be careful with your car too. No matter how good you think your car stereo might be it is nowhere in the class of a nice set of speakers in a half decent room. Cars hype the response all over the place. It can be very bad. I use the car to check very low end during a mastering session though. If the bass rattles my teeth I know something is wrong down there. What the car does tell me is that really well mastered CD's sound tight down the bottom end, still nice lows but no teeth rattling!
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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