EDIT: Was: Fast bounce ignores reverb? Now: Fast bounce and Freeze note-offs!

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williamcopper
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2015/07/11 08:02:36 (permalink)

EDIT: Was: Fast bounce ignores reverb? Now: Fast bounce and Freeze note-offs!

This is Platinum, Dorchester.    There is a clear difference between 'fast' and 'not fast' bounce.    This is not the same problem as the tempo getting changed, Foxboro issue (maybe).   Seems to me to be limited to ignoring the send from a VSTi output track ('instrument track') to an auxiliary bus.      Works fine with fast bounce off (whether 'audible' or not), and does not work with fast bounce.   Everything else exactly the same.    I think this may be older than Dorchester, I've often felt that bounce results in a different sound than intended. 
 
Edit:   it's looking like a note-off problem, as if Sonar is sending note-off commands on ALL midi tracks for a given VSTI, during freeze and fast bounce, but is NOT sending note-off commands on all midi tracks during playback and slow bounce audible. 
post edited by williamcopper - 2015/07/11 13:48:49
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    williamcopper
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    Re: Fast bounce ignores reverb on Aux track? From Kontakt instrument output. 2015/07/11 08:10:14 (permalink)
    Hmm ... this might be more complicated.    After doing a slow-bounce on the same material, then trying fast bounce again, the aux track effect was present in the bounced material; however one of the notes was abruptly cut off.  
     
    Ok trying to track it down further:   tried a "freeze" of the material going to one of the vsti's.    Same note abruptly cut off, in freeze, but sounds normal in regular play.   Using slow bounce, audible, it sounds normal.
     
    Further edit: reduced everything to two midi tracks, two notes, one VSTi, two outputs.    Same problem in freeze and fast bounce: the note on one track is cut off by the end of a note on another track.    This does NOT happen, same two notes, same tracks, in slow audible bounce and does not happen in playback.   
     
    This is using GPlayer as VST instrument, two outputs.    I tried replacing it with Kontakt 5, two outputs, and the freeze worked correctly.   (However, I believe there have been problems with Kontakt in the past...)     I wonder, now, if the latest Kontakt may be more protective of bad output from Sonar during freeze?   Otherwise, why would GPlayer work one way during freeze and a different way during playback? 
     
     
     
    post edited by williamcopper - 2015/07/11 09:04:25
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    Wookiee
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    Re: Fast bounce ignores reverb on Aux track? From Kontakt instrument output. 2015/07/11 08:42:00 (permalink)
    Does this fast cut off happen right on the end of the last note played.  I have seen something similar, it is as if the tail/decay of the sound is cut off because the note has reach it end even though the sound has not reached the end of its natural decay.

    My work around has been to add or extend an envelope to the track that extends beyond the end of the track to capture that delay.  Even with the play effects tails on in preferences I have heard this happen.
    post edited by Wookiee - 2015/07/11 08:49:22

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    Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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    Re: Fast bounce ignores reverb on Aux track? From Kontakt instrument output. 2015/07/11 09:06:14 (permalink)
    This likely specific to that synth. Note on's and note offs are matched by SONAR. There was an issue with the counting that was fixed in Dorchester or Cambridge if I remember. 
    i.e. if you send 2 note on's for the same note and MIDI channel, the note should NOT stop sounding until the last note off has been sent to the synth. Some synths respect this counting and others do not. So they may stop sounding when they receive the first note off.
    You can verify this by making a test track that has a long note and overlap a shorter note (same note number and channel) with that same note on the same track. Check if the synth sustains the original note or cuts it off when the short note ends.

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    Beepster
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    Re: Fast bounce ignores reverb on Aux track? From Kontakt instrument output. 2015/07/11 09:11:08 (permalink)
    Only skimmed your OP but check the synth documentation for entries on special export settings.
     
    Some vsti's experience cut off notes when using "fast" exports and have coded in special settings to correct the issue when needed. I believe BFD is (or used to be) one such instrument.
     
    Alternatively you could try just freezing the synth before exporting... if you haven't already tried that.
     
    Edit: Was typing that while Noel posted. Seems to be related to what I was trying to say. Check the synth manual.
    post edited by Beepster - 2015/07/11 09:19:05
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    williamcopper
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    Re: Fast bounce ignores reverb on Aux track? From Kontakt instrument output. 2015/07/11 10:08:58 (permalink)
    Thanks for the replies.    It's peculiar.   Still working on it.   May not be related to "note-offs" but rather to memory access allowed to the plugin.   Now I've managed to make the early cut-off come before the other track's note.  ...
     
     
     
     
     
    post edited by williamcopper - 2015/07/11 10:23:17
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    williamcopper
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    Re: Fast bounce ignores reverb on Aux track? From Kontakt instrument output. 2015/07/11 10:34:06 (permalink)
    After I did this a number of times, Sonar crashed (I had rolled back to Braintree to see if it made a difference)
     
    Problem Event Name:    APPCRASH
      Application Name:    SONARPLT.exe
      Application Version:    21.1.0.38
      Application Timestamp:    54f76a0a
      Fault Module Name:    ntdll.dll
      Fault Module Version:    6.1.7601.18798
      Fault Module Timestamp:    5507b864
      Exception Code:    c0000005
      Exception Offset:    0000000000028fa2
      OS Version:    6.1.7601.2.1.0.256.48
      Locale ID:    1033
      Additional Information 1:    ac05
      Additional Information 2:    ac0507478d1c5bd693cfc4fe3987e900
      Additional Information 3:    80b0
      Additional Information 4:    80b093921c6ccb0b5f40f2203cc7ba41


    post edited by williamcopper - 2015/07/11 10:42:55
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    brundlefly
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    Re: Fast bounce ignores reverb on Aux track? From Kontakt instrument output. 2015/07/11 13:20:59 (permalink)
    Downloaded the G-player demo to experiment, but it doesn't seem to have installed DLLs for the 32-bit or 64-bit VSTi anywhere - only the standalone executable. I checked both the non-default VstPlugins paths I gave it, and the paths it defaulted to. Download page says the demo includes the VSTi, so I dunno... Will take another look later.

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    williamcopper
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    Re: Fast bounce ignores reverb on Aux track? From Kontakt instrument output. 2015/07/11 13:44:42 (permalink)
    It is looking like a combination problem, something in GPlayer's 'stacked mode' and something in Sonar.   I'll try to get back to it; have a message into soundlib regarding it, we'll see if they have any ideas.  
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    Beepster
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    Re: Fast bounce ignores reverb on Aux track? From Kontakt instrument output. 2015/07/11 14:02:38 (permalink)
    Why? Why is it something in Sonar? Why is it ALWAYS something in Sonar?
     
    Properly diagnose first before pointing fingers. Did you look into any of the synth settings that may cause the note cut offs? It almost seems like by fixating on this you are making the problem worse. I could never work like that. I'd rather get things quickly sorted in an acceptable way and get the bloody hell on with it.
     
    Sorry... it just seems like picking at scabs.
     
    BTW... they released an update to Foxboro to solve that Fast Bounce quirk AFAIK. Check your account. Going back to Braintree won't help because after the Bakers look at it they realized it had been there since X3... or so I've read.
     
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    Anderton
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    Re: Fast bounce ignores reverb on Aux track? From Kontakt instrument output. 2015/07/11 20:23:11 (permalink)
    Beepster
    Why? Why is it something in Sonar? Why is it ALWAYS something in Sonar?



    Well, he DID change the thread title so it didn't have 46 exclamation marks!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    But to give you a serious answer, most - maybe even the majority - of users don't realize that what they see in SONAR is the tip of an iceberg. They don't see what Windows are doing, how the computer is communicating to the interface, how the plug-ins are communicating with SONAR, the buffering in the USB port, the high-end graphics card driver that suspends audio streaming every now and then because it has its own agenda, the sample library trying to decide how much of a note attack to put into RAM when it's streaming from disk, etc. Because all they actually SEE is the SONAR GUI, they assume the problem is SONAR.
     
    The worst-case examples of this kind of thinking are the posts along the lines of "I just installed a free 32-bit plug-in in my 64-bit system running SONAR, and now SONAR crashes. So I guess I need to re-install SONAR."

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    williamcopper
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    Re: Fast bounce ignores reverb on Aux track? From Kontakt instrument output. 2015/07/12 09:37:52 (permalink)
    Beepster, you make some good points, and some bad ones.   So far I have not been able to find an "acceptable way" to get on with work, other than slow bounce with audio.   I guess it's one more in a long long string of work-arounds.    
     
    I'm sorry if my post seeking answers, help, or fixes, seemed like pointing fingers.    Fwiw, I invested about 5 hours (again) in sonar troubleshooting; whether it is solely sonar, solely gplayer, or somewhere in between I still don't know. 
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    Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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    Re: Fast bounce ignores reverb on Aux track? From Kontakt instrument output. 2015/07/12 10:05:52 (permalink)
    If the exact same MIDI sequence sent to two soft synths produces a problem in one and not the other via fast bounce with the exact same buffer settings etc, the chances are that the problem is with the synth. I'll be the first one to say that this logic is not guaranteed since on the flip side there are classes of plugin bugs that show up only in one host and yet they are actually bugs in the plugin!
    VST (esp VST2) is a complex maze of operations that have state dependencies. i.e. the sequence of operations can often expose problems that are not anticipated. This can make it very hard to troubleshoot and find out where the real problem lies. For example it took many days to isolate the note off problem using a midi analyzer since I couldn't rely on plugins for my testing. 
     
    So I do sympathize with the amount of troubleshooting you have to do in cases like this. If you can get some kind of recipe or send a small project that can repro it we'll definitely look into it.

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