PilotGav
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Audio Snap and clips
If I have a kick drum track which is made of one long clip, and I have to adjust only one or two hits, should I split the clips so that audiosnap is only rendering that small portion or is it intelligent enough to only render what's changed and leave the rest of the track alone?
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brundlefly
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/16 12:21:32
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You can safely apply it to the whole track, and only move transients as needed without having other sections of audio affected in any way. But keep in mind that when you move a transient you're stretching/compressing the audio between that transient marker and the previous one which will affect the sound - though not the timing - of the previous hit to some extent. And you want to make sure there aren't any hits without markers in that region or they'll get moved with the stretched audio.
If you want to be sure, you can phase-invert a clone of the track, and check that the cancellation of hits that aren't moved remains total. Just make sure no FX are active, as the phase inversion can affect the processing.
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PilotGav
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/16 12:37:20
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Awesome response. Thank you!
So just to be clear... ONLY the modified portion of the clip is changed in any way when the whole clip is bounced to clip? That's a real life saver.
Your other tips regarding using trans. markers properly are really appreciated as well.
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brundlefly
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/16 12:57:58
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I haven't verified all algorithms in all cases, but I have checked this in the past using the default Groove-Clip algorithm which actually works pretty well for drums, and have not seen un-stretched regions affected.
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sausy1981
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/16 18:57:25
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Don't use audio snap, just split out the offending hits and move them manually.
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BRainbow
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/16 19:35:54
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sausy1981
Don't use audio snap, just split out the offending hits and move them manually.
I agree with sausy that this is the more transparent way to correct timing and I use whenever possible, especially on non-percussive tracks. Audiosnap sometimes distorts audio when you drag the markers. I've been trying to use it recently to correct some electric guitar chord timing and it is not real great for that. When I run into a distortion problem, I cut and move the audio segments manually.
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papacucku
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/16 19:51:31
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I use audio snap quite a bit sometimes many times on the same region . it is absolutely essential to help quantize overhead mice and the live drum recordings. The latest patches must have helped as it sounds amazing just make sure the offline or render algorithm is that really good radius one. Then also make sure you disable any markers that are "mid" phrase. So you are stretching an entire syllable or drum phrase and not a section of it. The secret is bouncing to clip and turning snap back off asap
post edited by papacucku - 2015/07/16 20:02:44
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MorganT
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/16 21:05:59
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I also found with guitar parts it helped to insert markers before and after the stretched / moved segments and not include them in the segment being edited - this limits the compression / stretching of the signal around the part that needs edited. Without this I was getting quite a bit of distortion around the edited segment. Worked great to tighten up timing of several guitar parts.
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MBGantt
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/16 21:22:45
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Melodyne is the best for this. Just edit and render the area that needs work and leave the rest alone.
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millzy
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/17 01:59:42
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+1 for Melodyne.
Not only is it a pitch correction tool, but also a timing correction tool. You can quantize to a set note value or adjust manually as required. I've used it a lot with great results.
For some reason i've never had much joy with Audiosnap.
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SWANG
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/17 22:54:23
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millzy
+1 for Melodyne.
Not only is it a pitch correction tool, but also a timing correction tool. You can quantize to a set note value or adjust manually as required. I've used it a lot with great results.
For some reason i've never had much joy with Audiosnap.
hi millzy. can you elaborate a bit on how you go about this? does it sound "natural"? what is the easiest way to do this across multitracked drums (close mics, overheads and rooms)? do you edit each mic channel separately or is there a way to make the same edit across all the channels simultaneously? sorry for all the questions, but i think melodyne might be the way to go here for my workflow.
post edited by SWANG - 2015/07/17 23:01:13
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millzy
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/20 02:09:43
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hi millzy. can you elaborate a bit on how you go about this? does it sound "natural"? what is the easiest way to do this across multitracked drums (close mics, overheads and rooms)? do you edit each mic channel separately or is there a way to make the same edit across all the channels simultaneously?
sorry for all the questions, but i think melodyne might be the way to go here for my workflow. I've never used Melodyne on multi-tracked drums, but you'd use it track by track. You could bounce all your drum tracks down to one and use it that way, but then you've lost all control over individual eq/compression/effects etc for each drum part. I've used it a lot on vocals and quite a bit on bass/guitars/keys and have found the changes extraordinarily natural (to a point of course!) There is always that point where over correction sounds unnatural and maybe re-doing the part is the best bet under those circumstances. Having said that, I've had some parts where a few notes have been way off but generally the take is good, and i"ve been able to fix them up perfectly. My advice would be have a play - take one of your drum tracks and experiment with it. Right click on it's clip, select Region FX, Melodyne, then Create Region FX. Once the clip opens in Melodyne there's a Quantize Time button on the top right. Select the part of the clip you want to edit, press the quantize button then a dialogue will appear where you can select the reference for timing ie 16th's. Then there's an Intensity slider. As you move it towards 100% you'll see all your hits move (if they're out of course!) Good luck, just have a play around and see what you think. HTH.
post edited by millzy - 2015/07/20 02:18:15
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synkrotron
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/20 04:00:24
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Hi Peeps,
I was just about to post something on this very same subject, so I thought I'd post in here instead, for now at least.
I think the first thing I should say is, I'm currently a Sonar X2 user and I am aware that there may have been some improvements between X2 and Platinum.
Although I've been playing guitar, on and off, for over thirty years, timing has never been my strong point (same with keys). Recording as MIDI has been my saviour over the years, and perhaps that has made me lazy, and now that I'm trying to incorporate guitar into my music those old timing issues are causing me some angst LOL.
So, I thought I'd have a go at using Transients for fixing my bad playing.
I'm getting mixed results... Some stretches work okay, but on some I am getting a sort of mild beating effect, in time with the music (around 8th notes), more noticeable on long sustained notes. So I'm not too happy with that to be honest, even though, with GR5 in the effects bin for some distortion, it's not too offensive... I just know it's there...
And when peeps talk about Melodyne, is that the version that comes with Splat?
I suppose I have a couple of options open to me;
If Splap has greatly improved transient stretching, then perhaps I should finally fork out for that,
Or if Melodyne is a better solution, and the version in Splat is what we are talking about here, then that also means I should upgrade to Splat,
And finally, I could resort to doing shorter takes, event if it's just one long note, and moving un-stretched clips to suit.
Learning to play in time is just not going to happen I'm afraid...
cheers
andy
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millzy
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/20 05:09:42
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Melodyne Essentials was bundled with Sonar before Platinum - X3 I think?? If you've got X2 and it's not in there then it must have been X3.
As I said above I've had superb results with it for timing correction but results will always depend on the complexity of the part and how 'off' it is. If your timing is bad like you say, you may still have mixed results.
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synkrotron
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/20 05:16:09
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Thanks Millzy  I'll sit on the fence a bit longer, see what peeps say about Splat and any improvements with stretching clips using transient handles... cheers andy
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Paul G
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/20 10:08:18
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For small timing changes/stretching, I've had pretty good results using VVocal as well as Melodyne. The timing tools in VV are very simple and straight forward.
HTH
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SWANG
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/21 02:07:24
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millzy
I've never used Melodyne on multi-tracked drums, but you'd use it track by track. You could bounce all your drum tracks down to one and use it that way, but then you've lost all control over individual eq/compression/effects etc for each drum part.
I've used it a lot on vocals and quite a bit on bass/guitars/keys and have found the changes extraordinarily natural (to a point of course!) There is always that point where over correction sounds unnatural and maybe re-doing the part is the best bet under those circumstances. Having said that, I've had some parts where a few notes have been way off but generally the take is good, and i"ve been able to fix them up perfectly.
My advice would be have a play - take one of your drum tracks and experiment with it. Right click on it's clip, select Region FX, Melodyne, then Create Region FX. Once the clip opens in Melodyne there's a Quantize Time button on the top right. Select the part of the clip you want to edit, press the quantize button then a dialogue will appear where you can select the reference for timing ie 16th's. Then there's an Intensity slider. As you move it towards 100% you'll see all your hits move (if they're out of course!) Good luck, just have a play around and see what you think. HTH.
bookmarked! thanks, millzy. cheers...
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jb101
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/21 04:48:32
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PilotGav
If I have a kick drum track which is made of one long clip, and I have to adjust only one or two hits, should I split the clips so that audiosnap is only rendering that small portion or is it intelligent enough to only render what's changed and leave the rest of the track alone?
Personally, I split the clips. I have not done it any other way, so cannot comment.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/21 09:28:46
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For those complaining about a "beating" effect with AudioSnap, it sounds like you need to bounce to clip. AudioSnap uses a lower resolution "live" algorithm until you bounce down. Melodyne uses the same one for both and as a result is more CPU intensive.
As much as I like Melodyne I would never use it for multitrack drum correction. Perhaps the standalone studio version could do this properly but if you go track by track you'll inevitably get flams. Using AudioSnap, you can select the same hit with multiple transient markers on each track (make sure they're placed correctly) and then move them together. This keeps the close mics in sync with the overheads and room mics. Google a bit on working with transient markers. AudioSnap could use a lot of improvement but for multitrack drum editing it beats the crap out of Melodyne.
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synkrotron
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/21 09:30:25
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Sanderxpander
For those complaining about a "beating" effect with AudioSnap, it sounds like you need to bounce to clip.
Thanks... I'll give that a try
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synkrotron
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/21 12:55:42
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Bouncing to clip helps a lot. There are still one or two glitches here and there, so I will just have to do another take where that happens. thanks again
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SWANG
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Re: Audio Snap and clips
2015/07/21 13:24:57
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Sanderxpander
For those complaining about a "beating" effect with AudioSnap, it sounds like you need to bounce to clip. AudioSnap uses a lower resolution "live" algorithm until you bounce down. Melodyne uses the same one for both and as a result is more CPU intensive.
As much as I like Melodyne I would never use it for multitrack drum correction. Perhaps the standalone studio version could do this properly but if you go track by track you'll inevitably get flams. Using AudioSnap, you can select the same hit with multiple transient markers on each track (make sure they're placed correctly) and then move them together. This keeps the close mics in sync with the overheads and room mics. Google a bit on working with transient markers. AudioSnap could use a lot of improvement but for multitrack drum editing it beats the crap out of Melodyne.
hmm, this thread is great and has given me much to think about. i guess the best (and most obvious) option would be for me to try both melodyne and audio snap to see which best suits individual situations/mixes. thanks for offering this perspective/info, sander...
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