Briankw
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Sonar Can you Layer VST?
Hello Sonar Users,
Is there a way to layer VST's. Example using Lounge Lizard and Dimension Pro Piano sound together in real time. I know once I record the track I can copy and paste the information to layer them. But can you play and trigger both Lounge Lizard and Dimension Pro.
Keith
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rabeach
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/20 21:14:00
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choose the same input midi channel for each synth; turn on input echo and arm record on each synth
post edited by rabeach - 2015/07/20 21:22:13
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Kylotan
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/21 14:45:34
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The answer is no. We've asked for this quite a few times but the feature isn't there yet.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
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slartabartfast
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/21 17:20:18
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The disparity in replies seems to be due to how you interpret layering. You can record/play MIDI from a single controller simultaneously onto separate tracks, each feeding the input of separate softsynths, and monitor the output to two separate audio tracks simultaneously. That is a lot more flexible than merging the sound into a single track, which is what some people seem to think layering is. That merged output is what you will get from a keyboard synth that merges the sounds into a single audio output, but then you lose the ability to tweak or assign automation to the two voices/synths independently. I do not see why anyone would prefer merged tracks in a system that permits unlimited tracks to be recorded.
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RD9
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/21 18:54:12
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slartabartfast
The disparity in replies seems to be due to how you interpret layering. You can record/play MIDI from a single controller simultaneously onto separate tracks, each feeding the input of separate softsynths, and monitor the output to two separate audio tracks simultaneously. That is a lot more flexible than merging the sound into a single track, which is what some people seem to think layering is. That merged output is what you will get from a keyboard synth that merges the sounds into a single audio output, but then you lose the ability to tweak or assign automation to the two voices/synths independently. I do not see why anyone would prefer merged tracks in a system that permits unlimited tracks to be recorded.
In my case I would define layering as a one-to-many relationship between a Midi Track and several VST Instruments. Why do I want this you ask? Here is a recent example: I wanted to layer a Dim Pro Pad over a True Piano and would prefer this type of workflow: 1) Assign the output of a single Midi Track to Dim Pro and True Pianos, 2) Record the Midi Track. 3) Correct any wrong notes or poor timing in the single Midi Track. 4) Create a second Midi Track and copy data from the first into the second. 5) Remove the Dim Pro from the output of the first Midi Track and assign it to the output of the second. 6) Correct any issues specific to one instrument with velocity, etc on each track. As you can see, Step 3 is much easier if there is only one track. Otherwise I need to keep copying my changes from track to track in order to preview my changes. Also, I often find that I don't need Steps 4-6 so the process is quite streamlined if we had layering as defined above. Note: Suggestions for a better approach to this task within Sonar will be appreciated but it does seem like a one-to-many relationship between a Midi Track and several VST Instruments could be very useful. Cheers, R
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slartabartfast
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/21 22:32:01
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Adq
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/21 22:42:41
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RD9, thank you for describing. Now I see clearly why layering doesn't work right for me. Yes, in theory you can monitor and record number of tracks, but in practice it looks like record -> edit -> record -> edit -> record -> edit -> ... ->record ->edit, and it is nearly impossible to do now. Yes, you can record, and than do linked clips, but what if you have several tracks, and dozens of clips? That's why multiple midi outputs, or midi sends is so important. And if you need to edit midi separately, it is more like other type of layering, when you record similar but different notes to make sound even more bigger and alive. But I agree that very often you just don't need to do it, and want to keep them exactly the same. And here is the problem. Because of that I tend to do some line with only one synth, and only after finishing it, I add others, and I don't like it.
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RD9
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/22 02:10:01
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slartabartfast
Not what I would have called layering, but it has been something users have been seeking for longer than you probably imagine without much response. There are routing workarounds that take you out of Sonar and back in virtually that do work., but it would be a lot more convenient to have a built-in.
http://forum.cakewalk.com/MIDI-to-Multiple-Tracks-One-Working-Solution-m1573767.aspx
Dear SBF (David), I agree the term layer can be understood in several ways; e.g. there are several ways to layer instruments (real time vs midi track). The purpose of my post was to clarify what I believed Keith was asking and to lend my support for this position. The link you included was very helpful for us to remember that it has been requested before, probably on a continual basis I suspect. I think I might have even requested it myself from CW back in 2007 when I first switched over to Sonar from Cubase. CW is very different company now and it is probably time to remind them again so thanks go to Keith. It shouldn't be too hard these days, the improvements are coming quite rapidly now. WRT your statement about the differences between definitions of "layering" is important and brings up an important point that we all need to be mindful of on this site. Sonar users are coming from several different musical experiences, goals, countries and cultures. Therefore, we all need to explain what we are talking about in a clear and concise manner; Using a single, ambiguous word often creates a maelstrom of anger and a flurry of posts with no useful purpose (Most forum users are still showing the scars of the Subscription vs. Membership battle of 2015). Even Keith's post above, which I found fairly clear, did create a bit of confusion as you so rightly pointed out (thanks for your insight). Cheers, R
post edited by RD9 - 2015/07/22 18:06:22
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KPerry
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/22 04:02:54
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☄ Helpfulby RD9 2015/07/22 19:40:25
And you can do something approaching layering after recording using linked MIDI clips.
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Adq
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/22 05:38:51
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KPerry
And you can do something approaching layering after recording using linked MIDI clips.
As I said earlier, nearly impossible in more or less complex case. If it would be linked tracks maybe...
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Kylotan
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/22 09:35:30
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Yeah, we go around in circles every time this topic comes up, but the short answer is (a) there are some significant cases where being able to trigger 2 or more synths from just 1 MIDI track would be useful, and (b) Sonar does not support that. FL Studio does, and I seem to remember REAPER does.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/22 10:36:06
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I don't understand why you couldn't just use linked clips and hide the lot of them. But you've probably made that argument a thousand times already.
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bapu
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/22 11:20:01
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Kylotan
Yeah, we go around in circles every time this topic comes up, but the short answer is (a) there are some significant cases where being able to trigger 2 or more synths from just 1 MIDI track would be useful, and (b) Sonar does not support that. FL Studio does, and I seem to remember REAPER does.
And yet the world keeps spinning. Odd that. 
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KPerry
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/22 11:23:29
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☄ Helpfulby SWANG 2015/07/22 13:32:08
You could also use a micro-host that can be loaded as a VSTi (Bidule? Chainer? Blue Cat do one too?) and put multiple VSTi's in that.
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rabeach
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/22 11:39:16
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definition vs methodology. the OP asked "But can you play and trigger both Lounge Lizard and Dimension Pro", the answer is yes you can if you interpret ' play and trigger' to mean use a midi input device. Only the OP can clarify the meaning of the question. If I stepped on any toes I apologize as I did not intend to interfere with any requested development to sonar's future.
post edited by rabeach - 2015/07/22 11:46:32
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Kylotan
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/22 13:15:48
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Sure. But I think the issue of having to manage both of those synths and MIDI channels separately from that point forward is a significant barrier to a good workflow. Needing to remember to arm both channels and/or copy linked clips is a hassle. Then if you want to drag them around, you have to select both.
Probably the best workflow Sonar offers for this is to put the synths you want to layer within a track folder, so that you can click just 1 button to arm all the tracks or to enable input echo, and to group the clips as soon as they are recorded so that future drag/drop/slip-edit functions operate across all copies of the clip. And if you want any effects to act on the layered sound you'll have to route them all to a common bus and apply the FX there (though this may no longer be the case after the "Track to Track Routing" feature gets delivered).
(Maybe there's a way to mimic some of that via Quick Groups but if I'm being honest I never really got that feature working, and I don't know if it even still exists.)
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
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SWANG
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/22 13:26:20
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KPerry
You could also use a micro-host that can be loaded as a VSTi (Bidule? Chainer? Blue Cat do one too?) and put multiple VSTi's in that.
yes i have used bluecat patchwork's synth option specifically for this. great plugin...
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Adq
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/22 13:59:45
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If Cakewalk can do audio track to track routing, this midi routing improvement is much easier and absolutely have to be done.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/22 16:33:39
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Kylotan
Sure. But I think the issue of having to manage both of those synths and MIDI channels separately from that point forward is a significant barrier to a good workflow. Needing to remember to arm both channels and/or copy linked clips is a hassle. Then if you want to drag them around, you have to select both.
Probably the best workflow Sonar offers for this is to put the synths you want to layer within a track folder, so that you can click just 1 button to arm all the tracks or to enable input echo, and to group the clips as soon as they are recorded so that future drag/drop/slip-edit functions operate across all copies of the clip. And if you want any effects to act on the layered sound you'll have to route them all to a common bus and apply the FX there (though this may no longer be the case after the "Track to Track Routing" feature gets delivered).
(Maybe there's a way to mimic some of that via Quick Groups but if I'm being honest I never really got that feature working, and I don't know if it even still exists.)
You can group the clips automatically (look in preferences) and yeah arming is easiest if in a folder. Once you set it up the right way, I can't off the top of my head think of any situation why you would have to deal with more than one midi track at all. And yeah obviously you'll need to bus the synths if you want to apply fx to all of them, but that only makes sense. You would have to have some way to separate fx on a single synth (e.g. piano with a chorused rhodes layer) and on a group (a compressor on the aforementioned layer) anyway, the current way makes perfect sense. It seems more an issue of wanting things to work differently than the actual result being impossible or even impractical. But whatever makes the software more flexible is fine by me.
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Kylotan
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/22 17:05:18
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Put it this way - if I want to route 1 audio recording through several different buses and then regroup it at the end, I can. But if I want to route 1 MIDI channel through several different tracks, I can't. The fact that with MIDI I have to duplicate the arming, the input echoing, and the clip management, is an unwelcome road-bump in the recording process with Sonar that I don't have with other DAWs.
Sure, there's an argument for saying that each VSTi output should be its own audio track - fine - but that's not an argument for requiring 2 separate MIDI tracks to feed into them.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/22 17:46:03
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I hear ya. In the mean time, track foldering and clip grouping is a pretty decent workaround.
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mudgel
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Re: Sonar Can you Layer VST?
2015/07/23 06:14:59
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I don't have a MIDI keyboard setup at the moment. It's really a question about the origins of the MIDI data isn't it.
If it was coming from an external keyboard you could select the same MIDI channel as the I put for each VSTi couldn't you.
Why not route the midi you want to use out to a keyboard and take a thru or output back from the keyboard and use that as your trigger. Any delay from the original midi is irrelevant as its the midi coming in to Sonar that will drive your VSTi.
Anyone game to try it and see if it works.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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