Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it?

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blackdogstudio
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RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2005/01/04 23:54:18 (permalink)
Thanks Steve JL and all for the info. I basically work with audio tracks and some midi...


* - Software that you mix with... Sonar 3.1.1 SE

** - Stereo tracks or Mono... Dual mono tracks panned hard left, hard right
(see effects)

* - Bussing... Occasionally but not too often (again see effects)

* - Control Surface vs Mouse... Roland SI-24

* - Monitoring (technique and equipment)... Headphones (AKGs) for recording,
JBL Eon's and subs for mixing and mastering

* - Effects (type and settings)... Mainly I use outboard effects through the aux
sends/returns. I like to dial in the effects as needed. Also it's nice being
able to blend wet and dry signals

* - Spectrum Analysis/RMS measurement... Not used for mixing

* - All-Digital or Digital/Analog... Digital whenever possible

* - Sonar views (ie mixing in Track View vs Console)... Track view

* - using Compression (per track vs bus)... Mostly per track, outboard through
the aux sends/returns
#31
mlockett
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RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2005/01/05 14:32:14 (permalink)
* - Software that you mix with (added on edit)
Sonar

* - Stereo tracks or Mono?
Almost all mono. Even if the source is stereo, I prefer two mono tracks to one stereo. It gives more flexibility in panning, since panning a stereo track kills part of the content of the sound.

* - Bussing
I always use a master bus, and route all the subs to the master. All tracks go to busses (none go straight to the audio card outs).
I usually make a bus for drums, vocals.
I do usually have one or two reverb buses. I prefer the reverbs in the send bus because,m per Bob Katz, ambient verbs are not panned in real life (though the orginal sound is, and early reflections are). Also, with the verb in a send, you can easily EQ the verb, without effecting the original sound... it often helps to cut lows on a verb. I often set up a send bus with a short panned stereo delay with a high pass filter that really just works as a stereo seperator, then if some tracks need a little something extra, I send them there. A little goes a long way.

* - Control Surface vs Mouse
If someone gave me a free control surface, I'd use it, but it's not a big enough deal to justify the cost for me personally.

* - Monitoring (technique and equipment)
Mackie HR824s (one of the best investments I've made in music). Decent monitors are a must to get a good sound... otherwise, you're just twidling knobs when mixing.

* - Effects (type and settings)
The usual stuff (comps, EQs, etc...) I like multiband EQs for bass, sometimes leads, and even vocals at times. For crazy effects, I sometimes use CloneEnsemble and/or DecaBuddy. I like WaveArts reverb a lot (Michael Shields recommended that to me awhile back). PSPVW get used at times especailly on drums.

* - All-Digital or Digital/Analog
All recording is digital (though some effects emulate analog. The sounds themselves are mostly analog (real instruments).

* - Sonar views (ie mixing in Track View vs Console)
Track view... but I stretch the left pane really wide so I can see at least gain, pan without expanding the track. The wider the pane is, the more controls move up into the pane title bar.

* - using Compression (per track vs bus)
Usually per track; typically I won't have two tracks that need the same compression settings. The exception is I use PSP Vintage Warmer sometimes on a bus to add a little analog sound.

* - what type of music do you record?
Rock/Experimental/Worldish
#32
bubblefish
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RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2005/01/06 19:27:51 (permalink)
thanks guys that cleared it up,

i had heard of similar things being done with vocals and called the "Motown sound"

anyway its one more thing to experiment with

best wishes

kieran

If you live the sacred and despise the ordinary,
you are still bobbing in the ocean of delusion

Some sounds with spaces
#33
mancelot
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RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2005/01/22 21:24:28 (permalink)
* - Software that you mix with
Sonar 3 Producer. (Soon to be Sonar 4 Producer )

** - Stereo tracks or Mono? -
Mostly stereo. Occasionally a drum or vocal in the mono category, but I really haven't figured out the advantages/disadvantages of that yet. (it's only been 5 years)
* - Bussing -
Typically, I use one bus for drums, one for guitars, one for vocals, one for keys and so on.... Occasionally, I will make a 'rhythm section bus' or something along those lines. It depends on the number of tracks, and how my cpu is handling things that day.

* - Control Surface vs Mouse -
I use a healthy combination of both. When I am recording vocals or guitars, I don't always want to be right on top of my machine, so I use the shuttle pro to get a little distance.

* - Monitoring (technique and equipment)
I just obtained a pair of M-Audio Studio 4 monitors. I use them to the fullest extent now...It used to be just my PC speakers. I have kids, and NO soundproofing, so most of the time, I create a mix in the headphones the night before while they are asleep, and then use the monitors the next day to clean it up.

* - Effects (type and settings) -
Effects vary with the project. Always a little on the vocal going in. Sometimes the acoustic guitar. A touch of compression on the overall mix.... a little on the snare. Various reverbs and delays. Mostly sonitus and Lexicon. Maybe a touch of chorus to thicken my backing vocals.
* - Spectrum Analysis -
(embarassed a little) Not entirely sure what that is.

* - RMS measurement -
Peak and RMS with locked peaks on the track meters. Buses are strictly RMS.

* - All-Digital or Digital/Analog -
Digital. Although I do occasionally miss the sounds that tape produced. Not enough to go back to the hassles it produced however.

* - Sonar views (ie mixing in Track View vs Console) -
A steady combination I would say. I do all of my drums through MIDI off of a roland TD-5 kit (from the 16th century I know )

* - using Compression (per track vs bus) -
Very little on track....a touch on a loud snare perhaps. Most of the compression comes in the final mixes for me, with just a bit throughout the early stages of mixing.
** - what type of music do you record? -
I like to call it progressive, though I have heard some arguments.

Mance - 
 
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#34
SteveJL
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RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2005/01/23 04:39:55 (permalink)
** - Stereo tracks or Mono? -
Mostly stereo. Occasionally a drum or vocal in the mono category, but I really haven't figured out the advantages/disadvantages of that yet. (it's only been 5 years)

Thanks Mance.

Just so you know, the biggest difference/drawback between Mono and Stereo tracks is that you have more control of your final stereo image when you track in mono. When you pan a stereo track, it leaves the one side fully panned (and full fader volume) while reducing the volume on the other, so no matter what, you always have a fully panned side, or both when it is center.

If you recorded a track(s) in stereo, you are better off "bouncing" each of them to separate mono tracks prior to Mixing, then Mute the orig. stereo track, and use the mono tracks for "imaging".

HTH
Steve

 
#35
SteveJL
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RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2005/02/14 04:39:02 (permalink)
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#36
jacktheexcynic
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RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2005/02/14 16:19:58 (permalink)
software: sonar 3 producer

stereo or mono tracks: if i have a stereo source, stereo. if i have a mono source, mono. currently i am tracking vocals in stereo but i think i will stop this because (a) it's a mono source =) and (b) s/n is better with a mono source for some reason.
edit: if i think that for any reason i may pan a stereo source, i do two mono tracks rather than one stereo. for example, the pod2.0 (which has stereo output) gets two l/r panned mono tracks, but toms and cymbals typically just get a single stereo track as i always leave their panning alone in the mix. it also saves me doubling their eq's.

bussing: i use it a lot. pretty much any time i would apply the same effect/eq/whatever to more than one track, i make a bus and use that instead. cuts down on cpu somewhat. i also have a reverb bus. typically i'll have five to seven busses: vocals, instrument mix, guitars, drums, and reverb. i usually double my guitars so sometimes i'll have two guitar busses, one for each guitar (i typically have two parts in a song). if there is more than one bgv, i add a buss for them as well.

control vs. mouse: i don't have control sufaces and don't deem myself capable of running the sliders in real time so mouse and track automation all the way. =)

monitoring: heh. for mixing i use a sony home theater system (two-channel) as i can afford nothing more. my speakers are too far apart (and i am too lazy to move them) when i mix but when i listen i sit on the couch and get the equilateral triangle thing going. that is typically when i'm happy with the tracks and i'm going to the mixdown stage. i also have a pair of headphones i use when i don't want to wake up my roommates, and a car stereo for checking those annoying frequencies that car stereos are so adept at producing on crappy mixes.

effects: i use the lexicon reverb as little as possible, and primarily to place a track further back in the mix. usually i figure if i can actually hear the reverb effect it is too much. for drums i turn it up until they get just a bit of a 'soft' feel, that's usually between -12 and -16db with a -6db or more reduction on the reverb bus. as for the type, i generally use a medium room verb although it depends on the space i'm trying to create. i typically dial in some pre-delay (10-100ms) so things don't get all washy. i haven't used reverb on a main vocal in a long time and don't plan to. i don't use any other effect besides eq.

rms measurement: again, not much i can do here. i don't know enough about it to try that hard finding something. i watch the levels on the master bus in sonar (which i hear are not particularly accurate?) and generally attempt to keep things between -12db and -0.1db, which can be easy or hard depending on the song. when i get to the point where i think i've got some good stuff, i think i'm going to send it off to a real engineer and let them sweat it. =)

spectrum analysis: i wish. i compare what i'm doing to something similar professionally and i try to find which track is preventing me from turning things up. then i hammer that track with some subtractive eq and try again. i look at sonitus' four-band compressor to see if any levels are way out of range, and also winamp has like a 10-band spectrum analyzer that most pro music (of the rock variety) keeps pegged on the inner 8. i use that to see if i've got too much low end, etc.

all-digital vs. some analog: well for right now it's all digital in the mix (analog sources of course). i'll let the mixing/mastering engineers fiddle with that.

sonar views: i use both track and console view at the same time. at 1280x1024 it's almost tolerable, but then i don't typically use a lot of tracks. i use both so i can work with the tracks yet have the ease of console to edit pan, volume, etc.

compression: i use compression on tracks that need it. guitar, vocals, bass mostly. i generally do not compress drums. i don't like the sound. perhaps i should compress the snare but that's as far as i would go. i slap a multi-band compressor (sonitus) on the final mix so the drums get compressed a little there. i generally use the default presets as i don't know better. if i hear pumping then i find the offending track and try to figure out what is wrong with it, rather than changing the compression settings. i also use a moderately aggressive compressor on the whole mix to see if some instrument (usually the bass or kick drum) is being obnoxious and then fix it. after it's fixed i take off the compression.

type of music: i record mostly alt- (mellow) acoustic- and folk-rock. i hate hip hop more than i hate pop more than i hate country, but i experiment on a pretty wide range of sounds and so influences from even those loathesome genres =) may show up in my music. i'm also not afraid to throw away stuff that i don't like.

post edited by jacktheexcynic - 2005/02/14 16:31:58

- jack the ex-cynic
#37
SteveJL
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RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2005/03/25 03:33:46 (permalink)
Time for a <bump>

 
#38
DonnyAir
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RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2005/03/25 08:52:48 (permalink)
Software that you mix with Cakewalk HS, Pro Tools
Stereo tracks or Mono? Both
Bussing Yes
Control Surface vs Mouse Both. When I'm using my PC it's a mouse, when I'm recording to DA tape or analog I'm on my Digital Console
Monitoring (technique and equipment) Reference/Nearfield; NS10's, Monitor 1's, JBL 4408's, powered by Hafler and Crown
Effects (type and settings) I use the plug ins available to me, as well as outboard (Lexicon, Alesis, etc) and the inboard FX chips in my 02R as well.
Spectrum Analysis/ RMS measurement : yes, ocassionally
All-Digital or Digital/Analog :
Both .. HD, DA's, and yes I still have analog R to R decks
using Compression (per track vs bus) per track recording, buss when mastering
what type of music do you record? well, when I was doing it full time, any one who had the money, so all styles, If you're asking how I write personally, well then here:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/donnythompson.htm


--D.
#39
yep
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RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2005/03/28 01:34:09 (permalink)
General:

I'm sort of always mixing as I go, at least in my head. At the tracking stage, I'm always thinking about how I want the intruments to fit into the overall picture, and the role I want each intrument to play. I'm not focusing on how each instrument sounds by its lonesome, but rather where I want it to be "seated" in the mix. This changes, obviously, from time to time, but when I'm setting up and selecting my mics and preamps and such, I usually have a very clear idea of what I want from each instrument, and I try and zero in on those during the recording stage.

Like maybe I want the snare to be woody and resonant, or I want it to be just a steady loud crack, or I want it to big and boomy, or whatever, and I want the bass to be smooth and round and warm, like something you can wrap yourself up and fall asleep in, or I want it to be stringy and punchy and metallic, or I want it to be like a loud, fat, growly finger in your ear or whatever. Maybe I want the vocal to rich and full and airy, surrounding the listener, or maybe I want it to be loud and clear, present and right out front, or maybe I want it to be intimate and throaty, with a lot of mouth noise, like the singer's lips are breaking saliva, leaning over your shoulder, delivering the lyrics right into your ear like a secret. Maybe I want the guitar to sound like a fat buzzsaw drone, or maybe I want a thick, chunky, slurpy, tubey sound, or maybe I want a slinky, sexy, shimmery twang and snarl.

This has a lot to do with the arrangement and performance, but I'm always thinking in terms of the overall vibe of the track, and where each instrument fits into that. This will determine whether I want the guitar player to use old strings or new, where the mics go, how the drums are tuned, whether I want to track the parts one phrase at a time or do the whole song straight through and punch-in mistakes later, or whether I want to use one setup for the verse and another for the chorus or whatever. Ideally, if I can track it right, mixing is a simple matter of setting the levels. In practice, it's rarely that easy.

I'm always doing little rough mixes as I go, putting reverb on the vocals, squashing the bass a little, turning up the hi-hats, and so on. This helps the performers hear where they fit in, and it helps me hear how things are working together. Come time to mix, I'll mute all the effects, turn everything up to zero, and give it a listen. From there, the approach can vary widely. If something is obviously not working then I will attempt to knock it quickly into line, and if that doesn't work, then it may need to be retracked or rethought.

Often, I will turn down everything but the bass and drums, and start from there. I'll get the bass and drums going good, so they feel right, so they drive the song the right way, keeping them peaking around -6dB (this seems to work like magic-- if the bass and drums sound good at -6, then, almost always, when I add everything else in, the peaks will come in just about 0dB). There's my foundation. Then I'll bring up the vocals and get them to sit in the bass and drum mix so that they're clear, clean, intelligible, and sound the way I want them to sound. The vocals are the song, usually. Those are the key elements that have to be right. All the other instruments and effects can be altered to fit in with the bass/drums/vox. From here, I push everything else up and start playing with it to get it to fit into the mix the way I want.

Other times, I just throw up all the faders and start tweaking. I'm not afraid to retrack, and I'm not afraid to just leave stuff out of the mix altogether. I'm not trying to get something that sounds like a "good mix," I'm trying to get something that doesn't sound mixed at all, where the listener just loses sight of the "sound," and simply hears the song and the performance. A good mix, IMO, bypasses your critical listening skills and communicates directly with your hips and your tailbone and with the hairs on the back of your neck. A good mix spreads across my face as an uncontrollable grin and down my spine and along the hairs on my arms. It makes me want to close my eyes and dance or drum along or sing along or bop my head and I forget about the reverb duration on the ride cymbal or Q on the vocal cut or any of that.

Specifics:

* - Software that you mix with (added on edit)
Sonar

** - Stereo tracks or Mono?
Um, usually mono tracks, but sometimes stereo. Depends how I mic'd it. I very rarely use "stereo" synths or samples, since most of them are basically a mono sound with stereo reverb or modulation or something and I usually find it easier to control that stuff on my own, later, but if it's a key part of the sound, then I'll work with that. Drum overheads and stereo pianos and such sometimes get made mono, too.

* - Bussing
Lots of bussing, lots of cloned tracks, processed in different ways. When mixing, I like to think and work in terms of sonic "elements" rather than instruments. I like to be able to push up or pull back on the "meat" of the bass or the "air" in the vocals or the backbeat, or the "edge" of the guitar, or the clarity of things, or what have you. I like to be able to zoom in and out, pschologically, and be able to easily push forward the "plink" of the piano while pulling back on the resonance, or to change the relative perception of the clarity of the vocals vs. the bigness, without necessarily altering the overall "sound" or the percieved position or level in the mix.

* - Control Surface vs Mouse
I like faders and knobs. I dislike the mouse. Personal preference.

* - Monitoring (technique and equipment)
Monitor quiet, below conversation level. Change speakers frequently, using both good and crappy playback systems. Check different sections loud frequently. Take frequent breaks and listen to other recordings that have a sound similar to what I'm looking for. Burn CDs and the like to check mixes in the car and on other playback systems. Check mix with headphones frequently to focus on details. Walk away from the desk and listen to the mix from the next room with the door open, and the door closed (this is key, it give a sense of persepective and can frequently reveal problems).

* - Effects (type and settings)
As appropriate, really. The usual stuff. Some delay and/or predelayed reverb on the vox, frequently sort of "timed" to the track. Another reverb send for everything else, set up as sort of a generic "room sound," typically mixed pretty low in the mix (like, nearly inaudible) just to sort of glue things together at the end. Another send, perhaps, for drums or background vox or guitars or piano or anything else that wants a special reverb. Sometimes a gated verb insert on the snare, or something else.

Some compression usually on the bass and the kick/snare. This will often be a seperate bus that will be compressed fairly heavily and mixed in with the uncompressed versions of everything else. Some compression or tape saturation or mild tube overdrive or something else on the vocals to bring up the presence and clarity or intimacy. This will typically be on a cloned track of the vox that gets mixed in behind the "regular" vox, and may be bandwidth-limited. Compression on parts that I really want to stand out, sometimes bandwidth-limited. Sometimes another bus where two or more instruments are compressed together to set them together. Additional "surgical" compression or limiting on anything that needs it, particularly clean or acoustic guitars, percussion, piano. This "surgical" compression is not intended to alter the sound, merely to bring up the levels a bit on things whose sonic profile (NOT the performance) might be more dynamic than I want them to be.

Eq as appropriate to clear up sonic space, reduce unpleasant artifacts, enhance intelligibility, etc. Usually a low-cut on anything that doesn't have much essential low-frequency content. Somewhere below the instrument's range, just to eliminiate any rumble, or sometimes creeping up into its range to reduce mud. If I need to eq something to really significantly alter the "sound" of it, or the percieved frequency profile, then I will typically create a clone or a bus and process that track heavily just to bring out whatever I'm looking for (i.e., the thump, or the mouth noise, or the bigness, or whatever). May also involve dynamics control or other processing. Once I zero in on that precise element, then I mix it in with the "regular" one to taste. This can create phase issues which may or may not be desireable, and which sometimes require compromise or compensation.

Maybe some special effects like delays or distortion or flanging or phasing or other "swirlies" or "telephone eq" or "old vinyl" on occaision, though I'm not generally a big fan of these things. I usually think they sound cheesy.

* - Spectrum Analysis
Almost never, unless I'm trying to isolate a specific problem and having a hard time with it. I can't remember the last time a spectral analyzer did me much good. Trying to "fix" a mix so it "looks right" almost invariably leads to a worse mix, in my experience.

* - RMS measurement
I check the meters frequently when compressing, not usually to achieve any specific target, but just as a sort of safety, to keep track of the changes I'm making. If I think I'm making minor tweaks, but meters tell me the levels are drastically different, or if I think that I'm just squishing the transients, but my meters tell me that whole passages are getting clamped, then I'm going to switch speakers, or turn it up, or turn it down, or give my ears a rest, or whatever.
For the finished track, I usually like this to end up somewhere around -18dB to -12dB as a practical compromise, but I'm not religious about it. If I expect the project to be mastered, then I won't sweat it much. If it's not likely to be mastered, then I'll sometimes throw a limiter across the main outs just to catch occaisional transients so I can bring it up around there for the 16bit final. I want my mixes to be heard, but I'm not a mastering engineer, and I don't try to be.

* - All-Digital or Digital/Analog
I like analog, but I can't afford much high-quality analog gear, and I don't have good enough equipment to keep going back-and-forth, so I'm pretty much all-digital at home.

* - Sonar views (ie mixing in Track View vs Console)
Pretty much always in track view.

* - using Compression (per track vs bus)
See effects.

** - what type of music do you record?
Mostly rock/pop-type stuff-- drums, bass, vox, guitars, keys, sometimes piano, percussion, strings, etc.

Cheers.
post edited by yep - 2005/03/28 01:42:47
#40
johndale
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RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2005/03/28 08:15:30 (permalink)
Well for starters, I "wing it" a lot. I will have the musical idea and do a listenable mix on the fly. Then I'll decide the sort of atmosphere I wish to create, or what kind of atmosphere the song creates. Then that will determine my direction. I listen to different recordings that I like and try to recreate the "sound". Anything from Sam Phillips, Phil Specter, Jerry Wexler etc. I feel the producer is as much an artist as any of the players. In fact in some cases even more so. OK, that said the ?s

* - Software that you mix with - Sonar 4 of course, with Wavelab 5 for last ditch efforts to salvage.

** - Stereo tracks or Mono? - Mono, it gives me more freedom later on and my instruments are mono, I like a WYSIWYG original track. I try and get my instruments so they hold up on their own without additional processing when possible.

* - Bussing - I never agreed with it, kids should go to neighborhood schools. No, I use bussing to create "groups" of sounds that require similar "doctoring and also total character in the final mix. And of course conservation of CPU power.

* - Control Surface vs Mouse - Almost 100% control surface. I use a JL Cooper CS-32 w/ Mike Normans interface. So I am able to pretty much use that to work Sonar, processors and effects. That and my Fatar master KB.

* - Monitoring (technique and equipment) - I use Tannoy REVEAL Passive w/ a Haffler transana power anp. Set up in a nearfeild equal lateral configuration. I also use AKG K240M and Audio Technica ATHM40FS for tracking and rough mix. Then I'll burn a CD and carry it to every stereo I can find and take mental notes. I also play it thru my bands PA before we start, as long as it doesn’t create ego problems.

* - Effects (type and settings) - Wow, I have a single UAD-1, Waves Musicians 2 and Transform bundles and a bunch of the Voxswego stuff. Plus the popular freebees and package stuff. Outboard I have a Lexicon 550, Alesis Midiverb and microverb, DBX 160m Presonus Bluemax compressor and a whole rack of stage stuff. Mainly Rane, Aphex Aural Exciter. I try to use the stuff as sparingly as possible. It is so easy to over process something and make a muddy mess.

* - Spectrum Analysis - I use the Waves and Voxswego thingies. And I always keep a close eye on meters and try to paint an aural picture that makes sense.

* - RMS measurement - Stay on top of my meters allowing headroom without getting weak. A critical stage for myself anyhow.

* - All-Digital or Digital/Analog -Once it leaves my guitar cord, all digital except for the occasional outboard processor patch.

* - Sonar views (ie mixing in Track View vs Console)- Track view 95% of the time.

* - using Compression (per track vs bus) - Both, whatever seems to work best. Even though I seem to prefer track.

** - what type of music do you record?-Blues/Jazz,Rockabilly, Americana, Country (Both kinds)

Okay, That was a lot of thinking. Now I'm tired..........................JDW
#41
zgraf
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RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2005/03/28 18:16:42 (permalink)
#42
rolo95
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RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2005/03/28 21:55:54 (permalink)
hey... no more.... rigs .???

uh ?

Rolo.


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#43
WFTurner
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RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2005/03/29 00:40:21 (permalink)
Never gave much thought to listing how I work. It might be insightful.

Software that you mix with: Sonar Studio 4.02

Stereo tracks or Mono: Depends on track. Grand Piano's are usually
always stereo. Electric/Rhodes type of piano mono if I'm looking for
rythymic, distorted, types of voicings, stereo if more effect, delay,
flanging, chorusing or vibrato types of flavoring. Vocals and Bass
usually mono, Guitars depends on the use in a song. Most of the synths
stuff I use, CronosX, Alpha, Impulse, Reason synths and etc almost
require stereo to keep the character of why I chose a particular voice.
I probably pretty much chose stereo and mono much like others but maybe
not at times.


Bussing: I use busses for submixes of Guitars, Vocals, Drums, Synths
Orhcrestra Sections and such I use aux busses for effects, like reverb,
delay, chorus and etc but never for processes such as compression and
gating. All my busses go to a Main Buss and to my interface out.

Control Surface vs Mouse: The only thing I ever had close to a mixer
was that on a Tascam PortaTwo 4 track back in the eighties so I'm at
ease and comfortable working in the box with a trackball.

Monitoring (technique and equipment): Basically most the time I monitor
on my Fostex 3 way system I got back in 2000. Towards the end of the
project I have some crappy small computer speakers and an even more
crappier Awia boombox I reference with. If I can listen to it a few
times on that boombox without wanting to hit it with a stick, it usually
will translate pretty well. The crappy CD system in the Chevy Illumna is
good reference for low end and boominess.

Effects (type and settings): I use the Sonitus I aquired with S3PE in
S4SE, Wavearts Trackplug whose compressor I love, Voxengo Warmifier,
Curve EQ, GlissEQ, HarmoniEQ, Lampthruster, Anwida 31 Band EQ and the
DigitalFishPhones stuff and a whole bunch of free stuff.

Spectrum Analysis: Ocassionally the VoxengoSPan

RMS measurement: In the mix stage I'm lookin for a RMS of -20 to -19.
When mastered my stuff seems to breath best in the -16 to -17 range.

All-Digital or Digital/Analog: Digital/Analog

Sonar views (ie mixing in Track View vs Console): I like to mix level's
and automation envelopes in the track view and use the Console view when
I get to trying out mixing effects/eq/compression. Not sure why I do it
that way, I just do.

using Compression (per track vs bus): Compression usually on a track
basis though I will also use it on a buss of a sub mix.

what type of music do you record? Used to do a lot of jazz, pop and blues
flavored country, but health makes singing almost impossible so I'm more
instrumentally inclined to a jazz, classical, contemporary vain with lots
of electronic production influences though I could probably do completely
electronic genres. The few times I have, I've been asked not to.

William F. Turner
songwriter
My Music

Craig Anderton's SSS
My other favorite forum
#44
SteveJL
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RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2005/08/08 03:23:40 (permalink)
<bump> for posterity

 
#45
guitarmikeh
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Re: RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2011/02/05 05:37:01 (permalink)
bump, just to resurrect an old, old thread.
I'm feeling pretty nostalgic for some of these guys.
JD it's been a while, RIP brother.

I harbor no ill will towards any man.
#46
droddey
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Re: RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2011/02/05 15:42:20 (permalink)
You know, I keep getting simpler and simpler as I more forward. Every new song has less processing than the last, which I think is how it should be. I try to have a good composition where the parts work well together. And I'm recording things to sound as absolutely as much as possible as they should sound, and also to have the dynamics be part of the composition and performance, not something put in artificially after the fact. The DAW is just a digital tape recorder to the degree I can manage. I never get all the way there, but closer every time.

So I set up a couple reverb buses at the start, because reverb so much influences the tone of the individual tracks that you apply it to. Then I try to just record everything as much as I can like it needs to sound, being brave slash stupid and applying hardware EQ and compression during tracking. As move forward, I'll apply a little EQ in the box with VibeEQ where I have to to make up for any failures to get it right as tracked. For drums I have to do both EQ and comp ITB at this phase since I use BFD/BFD2 and it just provides raw, unprocessed drum sounds so I have to process those.

At the end, I'll replace some of the ITB processing on the drums with outboard. I'll generally use Ferox on the master buss to saturate and tighten it a bit. Sometimes I'll put the Drawmer 1968 before that for some light mix compression and use the tube output stage of the Drawmer to push up most of the way to CD levels (and to drive the Ferox plug more.) If I had something like a Fatso or ATR I'd use that instead of Ferox. I might replace the reverb with some outboard reverb, though often it's not really worth it. And I might replace some EQ without outboard EQ.

I have a fairly limited set of outboard gear, so I have to use it on what matters most. Since everything but the drums were recorded by me, and already went through as much of the outboard on the way in as I wanted to use, and hopefully only needs at worst a little light EQ, I primarily concentrate on the drums for OTB processing. If it doesn't need mix compression, that compressor will also go towards the drums.

I don't use any limiters or multi-band comps or anything like that anymore on the master bus. I'm not making music to sell, so I can do the right thing and not mangle my stuff for the sake of loudness. If there's one or two peaks that are considerably above the rest, I'll just find out what is causing that and do a little very minor volume automation to reduce it. If it sounded like I might need a multi-band comp, then obviously I'm not done mixing yet. I then just push up the output until it's peaking just below 0dBFS and that's it.

It's really interesting to see the progress over the last four years I've been doing this. Now I realize that the biggest things I was missing all those years was basically A) knowing how to hear conflicts between parts and B) understanding how much balance really is the biggest tool you have available and C) understanding how ultimate composition is king. And, I guess ultimately, understanding that ALL of those are really supposedl to be about composition and arranagement, not about how many plugins you apply after the fact.

All sinmple ideas but so hard to really get your head around. Even just to the limited degree I have so far it's made a vast difference, and is why I'm not using 50 plugins on a mix anymore. A really good composition almost mixes itself, and the mix becomes a matter of enhancement, not polishing stinky ones. And I finally really got why they used to called them 'balance engineers', because that's just SOOO much of it. What I used to use 20 plugins to do on the drums I can now get mostly through proper balance of the rooms, overs, and directs, plus a little EQ and compression.

Anyway, that was a big rant. But I was waiting for my rice to finish steaming and couldn't face doing real work, so it was a pleasant distraction and hopefully will help someone else. I'm don't mean to come across like I'm Alan Parsons or anything. I've just begun to scratch the surface but if you spend your time scratching away at the right parts of the surface, you can make a lot of progress.

Here's a little test piece I did the other night. It's very short and done in just a couple hours, just to try something out in a particular style. I could have never done anything like this not that long ago, but this one came so easily, because of the simplicity of the composition and selection of tones that work well together. There's still some problems with the composition (since it was done quickly on the fly) in that there's a little clash in a couple places between the center guitar part and the left/right ones, and the bass I'd probably change a bit. But still, I would have killed to be able to do something like this not very long ago and now it's really easy, with very little processing in the mix.

http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/TmpAudio/Heavy-Test.wma
post edited by droddey - 2011/02/05 15:46:55

Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
www.charmedquark.com
#47
Guitarhacker
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Re: RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2011/02/05 16:20:44 (permalink)
you do know that this is a 2005  thread that was bumped I hope.

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#48
droddey
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Re: RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2011/02/05 16:33:20 (permalink)
Sure. The person who bumped it mentioned that. But, it's still a relevant topic, so I commented. It might be interesting to hear from some of the folks who originally posted to see if they've changed their views since then.

Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
www.charmedquark.com
#49
guitarmikeh
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Re: RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2011/02/05 20:27:30 (permalink)
I don't use any limiters or multi-band comps or anything like that anymore on the master bus.


droddey thanks for replying. sorry for bumping and old thread but I thought it was still relevant today as well.
I use the above philosophy (as you posted) as well and I recommend it to everyone I talk to. sometimes they heed my instructions sometimes not.

  and thanks for a look into "how you do things". my way of working mostly mirrors yours except I don't go outside the box for anything. (no money )
the many bus and sub mixes I use do almost all the effects and summing of different sections. with the rare effect on tracks like eq and and maybe subtle comp.

I harbor no ill will towards any man.
#50
Jimbo21
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Re: RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2011/02/05 21:11:02 (permalink)
I actually enjoyed reading a good bit of this thread.

I thought Dean's "thoughts" were a nice, reasoned, short dissertation on his growth as an engineer/arranger/producer. I'm definitely not as far along as he seems to be, but I'm working on it.

I truly believe the most critical part of the process of writing/recording/producing music is the writing and arranging part. Unfortunately, it's also my weakest, though I am making slow progress. I think you have to realize where there's a  problem before you can fix it. Being aware of and accounting for what part flows well into the next section, the dynamics of the entire song; is there a nice little emotional ride that engages the listener, are some of the most fundamental aspects of song writing/creation. I sometimes lose a grasp on those things as I'm writing a song. I get caught in the details. I know planning ahead and developing a sort of map of where you want to end up is a good idea. It's just difficult for me to do that.

I guess I went a little off topic. I would still be interested in others tracking/mixing work flow, especially to see if anything's changes for most since a few years ago.

Jim



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#51
droddey
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Re: RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2011/02/05 22:08:35 (permalink)
Being aware of and accounting for what part flows well into the next section, the dynamics of the entire song; is there a nice little emotional ride that engages the listener, are some of the most fundamental aspects of song writing/creation. I sometimes lose a grasp on those things as I'm writing a song. I get caught in the details.


Yeh, that's a whole other aspect of song writing than the more engineering bits of what tones sound good together, and I think it's probably a good bit harder than those more engineering oriented aspects for most of us. It's one thing to come up with one section of a song that sounds good and has a vibe. But to string a set of them together in a way that flows and sounds coherent but has variety and good ups and downs of energy and all that. That's the really hard part. I'm definitely still struggling with that part as well. My full songs don't yet have nearly enough ebb and flow and energy.

But I guess you first have to master that ability to get individual combinations of instruments into a nice and interesting sound before you can take the next step and get comfortable building groups of them into nice full length arrangements.

Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
www.charmedquark.com
#52
Jimbo21
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Re: RE: Mixing Down: what's working? How do you do it? 2011/02/06 00:02:06 (permalink)
droddey



Being aware of and accounting for what part flows well into the next section, the dynamics of the entire song; is there a nice little emotional ride that engages the listener, are some of the most fundamental aspects of song writing/creation. I sometimes lose a grasp on those things as I'm writing a song. I get caught in the details.


Yeh, that's a whole other aspect of song writing than the more engineering bits of what tones sound good together, and I think it's probably a good bit harder than those more engineering oriented aspects for most of us. It's one thing to come up with one section of a song that sounds good and has a vibe. But to string a set of them together in a way that flows and sounds coherent but has variety and good ups and downs of energy and all that. That's the really hard part. I'm definitely still struggling with that part as well. My full songs don't yet have nearly enough ebb and flow and energy.

But I guess you first have to master that ability to get individual combinations of instruments into a nice and interesting sound before you can take the next step and get comfortable building groups of them into nice full length arrangements.



I guess I kinda of drifted off topic, but it does all fit together. Especially, for those of us who write songs and want/must/have to do the whole project from begining to end. I struggle with all of it at times. When the arrangement is well done and the guitars don't fight each other or the bass and there's still plenty of room for the vocals leads/melodies the mixing part is much easier.

Your clip from above, for instance, does illustrate the point. Sounds like a nice intro or segue to me, by the way (speaking of song parts). I'm on my family desktop, away from my DAW, and even with these tiny speakers the arpeggiated guitar fits quite nicely with the crunchier part. In the past I would just double a guitar part and not think much about it as long as I played them both exactly the same as I could. That may be okay, or maybe a different octave or syncopated piece may fit better.

Iv'e learned alot from several of you people on this forum and others. I'm sure I use too many plugins, but the good news is I'm using them more effectively every week.

These kind of threads do help me get a perspective on what others are doing and how they go about things.

Jim

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#53
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