Helpful ReplyIs there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz?

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pentimentosound
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2015/07/27 13:14:24 (permalink)

Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz?

I was hooking up my "new" Octopre Mkii to my 18i20at 48khz(also recently added), and noticed that older projects with 44.1khz sample rates, wouldn't lock. I'd like to start doing all my tracking(further overdubs/next tracks) at 48khz. What is the easiest way to do this?
      I assume that I can't have projects with both rates. Is that true? I was under the impression it was possible, but perhaps not with the 18i20/Octopre.
      Do I have to convert each track or can I convert projects?
Thanks for all help and advice!
Michael

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Sir Les
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 14:00:03 (permalink)
1. Turn off internet, and any wi fi...(free up irq's)
Make sure you have onboard audio on...but not HD HDMI audio.
 
Setup/Control pannel/Speaker..Default play back device being the Onboard sound card,(share the device with mutilple software if you want to) and select the ins and outs of that device for playback...Play the 44.1 16bit file (Project?..stereo file?..))  through a  Media player, or software, other then Sonar///...Once you got 44.1 16 bit files playing through that onboard sound card, and coming out of the output jack.....Set up sonar to use the other audio device's ASIO? ((Tascam US1641 inputs)), and not share with any other software the ASIO....In Sonar's preference.
 
Then Run the software playing 44.1 file's output of the onboard sound cards play back, into the Audio card of added on ASIO input((Tascam US1641))....and re-record the file at your bit depth of choice/tempo and time signature does not need to change to do this, and....Should do the trick.
 
Do you have a second pc?...Play the file on one PC or Mac...take the output, run it into another PC's input, and record at the new bit rate....use the same tempo and time signaturess.....Should work...could even add eq through a mixer to beef it up...or feed a multi External FXs unit from one audio device...take the output of that fx, and run it into the other audio device, and start recording... to re record...at ...etc
 
Or open a software that renders into multiple formats and rerender to the new bit rate....
 
Going from a lower bit rate to a higher might give you artifacts on the wav file....So I recommend re recording...and perhaps adding some eq if  necessary... 
 
Some say to capture the best sound, others say capture the best performance....I say "" get it done.."" and it is done!
 
Best wishes!

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#2
Beepster
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 14:06:03 (permalink)
Hi, Michael. The following post is going to be vague and probably useless BUT I've been gleaning some strange stuff that I do not really understand where Sonar can somehow work at a fixed samplerate (or maybe it's bit depth... seriously IDK WTF I'm talking about) using files of varying sr/bd. Like you set the project to use 48/24 and anything in it/imported into it just works at those settings even if they are not.
 
I'm not talking about import conversion. I'm talking about Sonar somehow doing some automagic weirdness where a 48/24 project just references audio files that do not match those settings and plays them back at the appropriate setting.
 
This could be utter bullpuckey and I am likely confused about what I was reading but I think it was a concept I encountered when poking around strange and scary areas of the manual.
 
Otherwise IRC I've gotten prompts when opening projects at a different setting where it was asking if I wanted to convert the files. No idea how or why or if maybe I dreamed that (I'm a little crazy so the latter is quite possible) but I'm just trying to give you some things to explore in the manual.
 
I yanked the Platinum PDF local help file from my DAW and tossed it on my laptop and occasionally poke around to dig up weird crap like this (like I just scroll through the topics/contents and if something slaps me in the face I check it out). Maybe it's in there near the end where all the really crazy stuff is.
 
Of course the other guys will know better and hopefully will pop in soon.
 
Cheers.
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mettelus
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 14:10:42 (permalink)
Brundlefly made a nice post a week or two ago on the conversioning. I will not be able to find it on my phone for you though :(

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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 14:11:47 (permalink)
First question: Why do you want to start working at 48 kHz?

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THambrecht
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 14:15:35 (permalink)
There are so many programs and tools which can batch-convert WAV from 44 kHz to 48 kHz.
Batch-convert ALL files from 44 to 48 kHz OUTSIDE of Sonar.
When you start any Project it is fully converted.
This takes only ten minutes of time to convert ALL wav-files from all your projects.
 
For example:
http://www.fmjsoft.com/awaveaudio.html
http://www.avs4you.com
 

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Sir Les
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 14:28:54 (permalink)
Yah but routing things with the toys He/She has listed,..will help more so get a better re recording/ and learn how to solve many other Busing problems in future, that will no doubt arise on day.......So,..Choices eh?....inside the box, out side the box, or many boxes, and many wills, many ways...all linked to bliss...we hope.
 
Cheers.

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pentimentosound
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 14:46:07 (permalink)
Thanks to all! Whoohoo.
@ Craig     I guess I'm thinking it's "better". I stayed with 44.1 when 48 became an option, because of limited HDD space (10+ years ago), and that isn't the case, now.  If my wife continues making videos, I'd like to do the soundtracks. I've read that 48 kHz is the "norm" in that world. I wouldn't be using all my projects, though, only some. So perhaps I could convert them as needed?
@ Sir Les    I do have 2 of each (PC+I/O), but that seems a PITA with 20-30 tracks per project. It is an option, tho.
@ Beep    That is the same "reading" that is floating around in my thought pool! "Didn't I read that....?"
@ Mettelus. Thanks, I'll look for his post.
@THambrecht    Thanks for those links. I wondered about that possibility.
Michael
#8
Sir Les
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 15:00:28 (permalink)
Yes it is a option...I do often use odd ones at times, when the others do not work to my liking...wink...PITA BREAD WINE AND FISH...is All Good eating info Here...
 
Be well.
 
Cheers!

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Beepster
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 15:04:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2015/07/27 19:04:05
You, know man... unless there is some drastic reason to do so I would complete all projects you have at their current settings (so new tracks get done at the same setting) and then any new projects get started at the higher samplerate.
 
That's how I've always rolled. Start something at a specific SR/BD... work in that until completion.
 
Although I would not personally start a project at 44.1 (I mostly do 48 or 96) I have been doing work for a fellow who uses 44.1 and it's totally fine.
 
I just change settings as need be based on whatever I'm working on.
 
In fact I think upsampling (going from 44.1 to something higher) might even open the door for more issues than they'll solve but I don't know for sure. I just know that I've read that unless you really have to "upsample" you should probably avoid it.
 
However if you DO find that thingamabob where Sonar can use whatever SR/file type then record any new stuff at the higher settings... well that might work out. I'd personally be worried abotu a performance hit when doing that type of of automagic conversion but it probably does it once upon opening then it's done until the next time you load the project.
 
Again... vague... IDK what I'm talking about... I should probably be completely ignored... the other dudes could likely point you in a much better direction.
 
 
Good luck.
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Sir Les
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 15:09:21 (permalink)
Hay Beep...You are on my wav frequency....I do not like upsampling...it causes issues in the files for me...that is why I re record...and add some eq beef to that when doing....Makes much better converts!
 
Bliss in cheers!...Stay cool...I hear you!

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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 15:11:36 (permalink)
I would listen to Beep on this. 

Best
John
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Beagle
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 15:19:06 (permalink)
I agree with Beep - there's not many good reasons to change your sampling rate from 44.1 to 48kHz on existing or old projects.  no benefit will come from upsampling them.
 
if you want to start new projects at 48k you can reap some benefit from that, but there's almost nothing I can think of which would make me want to change existing or finished projects to 48k.

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Beepster
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 15:19:24 (permalink)
Hi, Les. Yeah... my dum dum understanding of frequency/samplerate stuff is 99% of the time the difference between 44.1 and 48 isn't gonna make any real difference... especially if most of the files were already recorded at 44.1. Upsampling? Well I don't know what can happen there but if I have something sounding good I try not to bounce/export/do anything to it unless necessary. I don't believe there is any benefit at all to increasing the sample.
 
But really I am indeed a dum dum and I work with an overabundance of caution simply out of fear because I don't want to screw something up.
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Beepster
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 15:20:44 (permalink)
lol... I guess I may have gotten one right.
 
Fear. It works!
 
;-)
 
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pentimentosound
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 16:03:07 (permalink)
Well, well, well! I didn't think about upsampling causing issues! I'll go with door #1, as Beep pointed out. It's fine as it is and I can do new stuff higher. No one mentioned whether downward conversion causes artifacts.... yes, no?
 
..and going back to video; I guess resampling my master mixes to 48khz wouldn't be a big deal, if I need to do that for a video.
Thanks to all.
Michael
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Beepster
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 16:11:09 (permalink)
Well we do downsampling any time we export from higher samplerates down to CD quality (44.1) so that's of course totally fine.
 
From what I've gleaned you mostly want the higher samplerates for recording and processing to snag all the high freq info. That way when you mix/add effects and stuff you are working with more information. Once it's all sweetened up dropping it down keeps the good stuff and removes unnecessary stuff.
 
Or something like that. It's still all voodoo weirdness to me and as I stated before... I'm a dum dum. Lots of info online about this type of thing though if you are really interested. It'a ll sciency and crap though. Playing guitar is more fun.
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pentimentosound
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 16:58:22 (permalink)
Playing guitar is definitely more fun!
 
Do you hear a big difference at 96khz?
Michael
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slartabartfast
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 17:08:47 (permalink)
Beepster
Hi, Les. Yeah... my dum dum understanding of frequency/samplerate stuff is 99% of the time the difference between 44.1 and 48 isn't gonna make any real difference... especially if most of the files were already recorded at 44.1. Upsampling? Well I don't know what can happen there but if I have something sounding good I try not to bounce/export/do anything to it unless necessary. I don't believe there is any benefit at all to increasing the sample.
 
But really I am indeed a dum dum and I work with an overabundance of caution simply out of fear because I don't want to screw something up.


Well the issue with converting 44.1 to 48 has nothing to do with the accuracy of higher rates for representing higher frequencies. Please do not let us go there. It is simply that a 44.1 K file only has 44.1 K information encoded in it. The math is that there is only that amount of information available, you cannot create more information by changing the way it is encoded.  The analogy is that if you pour a 12 oz can of beer into a 1 pint tankard, you do not get any more beer. You will not necessarily lose any information, but it is possible that the information will be minimally altered by the upsampling process because the two rates are not convertible by an integer relationship. If you were to convert 48K to 96K you could just pad zeros and have a  file with identical information, but you are going to have to do some rounding/interpolation  with non-integer re-sampling, and that presents the opportunity for a trivial difference.
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 17:14:56 (permalink)
Well I think I can for certain things but I also think my hairline is exactly where it was when I was 18 and that chicks really dig scrawny, twisted up weirdo cripples.
 
So yeah... could be totally in my head. lol
 
Seriously though I've dropped to 48 and if I've lost anything it's minimal and I mix around it anyway. As I am learning more I may bump it up again for stuff I intend to fully release (for use in movies or whatever) but just for demos or fun stuff 48 is more than fine and what was used (AFAIK) in the ADAT days which was what the industry used for quite some time. No real reason to take the performance hit unless you have a specific need.
 
Bumping up from 44.1 for new projects would likely be a good idea though.
 
Cheers.
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slartabartfast
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 17:31:45 (permalink)
pentimentosound
 No one mentioned whether downward conversion causes artifacts.... yes, no?




Downsampling is unlikely to cause artifacts if it is properly implemented, but the downsampled file must necessarily have less information than the original. If the original file sampling rate is near the Nyquist rate (required to accurately reproduce the original signal) then downsampling to a lower rate may bring you into a range where the original signal is no longer accurately reproducible. The loss of samples will produce a file that can not reproduce the original, and if you upsample that file, it will be impossible to recover that fidelity because the critical information was lost in the process. Upsampling does not produce any new information. Generally 44.1 K will accurately reproduce the audible range of audio, so that is the lower practical limit that you should downsample to. 
#21
Anderton
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 17:35:33 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby pentimentosound 2015/07/27 19:29:38
Don't forget about the new SONAR render-with-upsampling option. I've been experimenting with it for a while, and with some mixes using some plug-ins, it definitely adds clarity to 44.1 kHz projects that's not obtainable with 44.1 kHz alone.

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microapp
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 17:39:25 (permalink)
Try Voxengo R8brain ... its free and IIRC it has a batch mode.
You should be able to change your project to the new SR, close it, then convert the wav files and reopen the project.
I think that is the procedure I used
Last time I used it was way back when I   was fooling around with 96Kb. Could have been with 8.5 or X1.
It will definitely convert waves to whatever bitrate you want.
 
post edited by microapp - 2015/07/27 17:48:27

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mettelus
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 19:07:56 (permalink)
Didn't get to catch all of this thread, but Beeps' points are good ones. As I have only done a handful of videos, it is also simpler to work to completion (if in 44.1K) and then convert the master to 48K when the time comes for video work.

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pentimentosound
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Re: Is there a simple way to convert lots of older projects from 44.1 to 48khz? 2015/07/27 19:36:02 (permalink)
I get the doubling thing, from having read (retained? maybe?)Craig's posts on FX at 96khz etc. and "the new SONAR render-with-upsampling option", and that was the other reason for going to 48khz; to try  going to 96...
Since my 18i20/OctoPre Mkii can both do 96( or 88.2 but that seems useless with the desire to use tracks for video etc), and I have better mics/pres than the last time I tried 48khz, I'd like to "move up in the world", so to speak.
LOL
Michael
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